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It's illegal. Do what you want, but it's illegal, just as about 90% or more of the Brazilian sold on ebay is.

Andrew

Brock I peruse Baskwood's offerings on eBay often and don't recall them offering anything that nice!

[QUOTE=Anthony Z] Brock I peruse Baskwood's offerings on eBay often and don't recall them offering anything that nice! [/QUOTE]

Yeah, Steve has fantastic wood.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Thanks Brock.

I was hoping one of the experts would chime in... I understand if they
refrain.

Perhaps this topic is too emotionally charged... which I can also understand.

I have not purchased any BRW. I suspect I will someday and I appreciate the information on this thread so that I can be sure to purchase legal wood. I have been tempted by some stuff on auction, now I am glad that I never placed a bid.
Thank you.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

[QUOTE=Cameron Reddy] Thanks Brock.

I was hoping one of the experts would chime in... I understand if they
refrain.

Perhaps this topic is too emotionally charged... which I can also understand.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what an "expert" can contribute to this thread. Either the wood is legal or it's illegal. Either a consumer trades in it or does not trade in it. To be legal requires abiding by the international law requirements of CITES. There is no gray area. Each and every person must decide the ethic issues for themselves since they have to live with it one way or another. Unfortuantely to choose wrong does affect the entire world order, but that matters not to some so long as "I get mine".

There's no need to consult a criminal attorney for advice before driving drunk either

Well... might I suggest that the time you should consult with an attorney
is BEFORE you get arrested for drunk driving! There are things you
should, and shouldn't, do--if, and when, the red and blue lights flash!

On the issue of CITES, I'd like to know if there is any case law interpreting
the treaty. How about administrative decisions? Who has jurisdiction?

Has anyone actually read the whole treaty? I've started several times but
my eyes start crossing with the fifth "And considering... blah... blah...
blah..."

I'd like to know if a putative violation of a treaty (which ordinarily is a pact
between, or among, nations) is, and to what extent it is, binding on
individuals. And what exactly are the penalties for a violation? What is the
agency that investigates and prosecutes violations? Where are such
prosecutions conducted? In your home state? In the state of importation?

Are putative violations conducted under federal law? State procedural law?
In federal court, state court, or special administrative court?

Stuff like that.

    Anyone who has seen the destruction of the rainforest regions of South America that has been suffered in the name of development hopes that every time the issue of illegal woods comes up, a thread on the CITES violations will as well. The wood siappears at an alarming rate, but little to no development takes it place and the landscape sits in a desolate state.

    When integrity doesn't show up in one area of a person's decision making or behaviour, it's most likely not present in any areas. If a person will just do what they want regardless of the law or effects that it has on others will most likely do it in any instance...no matter who is affected by their actions.

   CITES compliance documentation and permits can be acquired by legit businesses in South America for the recovery and sale and export of Brazilian Rosewood, but it can be expensive since you need to be just that...a legitimate business and not just a pirate operation sweeping in to steal the wood or drop healthy trees. A copy of that permit should accompany any wood moved by those businesses to their destination.

   Any Brazilian Rosewood that you see in sizes large enough to make guitars from is "old growth". Those trees have been around a long time. I think it would be more accurate to call it either "old harvest" or "new harvest" wood indicative of whether it was cut and milled before or after the CITES initiation.

   I, for one, hope that, as long as there is a question of the lagality of a woods origin, there will be those who will speak up and remind potential buyers of the issue. Unfortunately, the lure of profit is a much more persuasive motivator than honesty and integrity.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

[QUOTE=Kevin Gallagher] ... A copy of that permit should accompany any
wood moved by those businesses to their destination.
[/QUOTE]

Would someone be so kind as to show us a copy of the permit that you
received with your wood? I'm most curious to see one.

"Cut and milled" is an interesting term. What if the wood was cut before
CITES, but milled after? What if it was cut and milled before... and then,
after CITES, milled again into guitar sets? Lots of gray areas, it seems to
me. I would think that there is some case law on the subject. Maybe I'll
check our local law school--right after I finish unloading my most recent
international shipment of BRW

Thanks everyone! I appreciate all the input!

The Amazons is the world's last frontier and is going through a time in history not unlike the colonization of the US, or the "new world", as I'm sure most of you know. Rainforest land is from what I understand, poorly suited for farming when stripped, and so attempts by settlers to become farmers are sadly failing. What's sad to me is that in a country of such widespread poverty most hardwoods other than rosewood end up being burned as firewood. These woods are often from what I understand great alternatives for both tone or furniture. Being a newer generation of builders, I don't necessarily expect to ever build with BRW, and am not sure if I want to. Greed and ignorance are unfortunate evils, and contruibute to leave our generation with less options. One older builder I visited once had stacks of BRW in his shop. He got into it when it was good.

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"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

Well said, Kevin and much more eloquent than I have posted. I'm more of a "get to the point" person without the niceties.

"Old harvest" or "new harvest" is a very good description of what's on the market and if an eBay seller can't offer papers then one can and should presume it's new harvest or stolen old harvest.

A few years back I was offered a container load of BRW milled to my specs. The cants to be milled were old harvest (I was told)and would literally be sawn to the specs I wanted. This offer came from a a person with whom I've done business with for a couple years and trusted to be honest. As the time came for me to visit Brazil with a satchel of money I asked for the CITES certificate number assigned to the wood so I could verify the legalities, but none was forth coming. Profit would have been enormous with or without certificates. I didn't proceed any farther with the project and perhaps some of the wood from those cants are floating around on eBay...who really knows for sure, but you can bet it wasn't old harvest after all.

Cameron, the information you want is somewhere within the federal system. USDA or Customs or the Attorney Generals' office. Thats where the legal experts are for CITES enforcement and prosecution.

Not wanting to open a can of worms. This is just an observation.
I know that you can buy BRW in Brazil that is illegal but comes with CITES paperwork. May I suggest that there is BRW being sold with paperwork that is just as illegal as the wood?

Robbie, that is an absolute possibility since a few years ago 100% of the mahogany logging in Brazil was illegal by Brazilian forestry and permit laws. Never the less, we have to have some protocol limits and legal papers and legal export and legal import might..MIGHT..be all we can do.

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Man the leaves are changing colors here really fast......

Maybe it's time to start singing gang?[/QUOTE]

Everybody!

Kumbaya... Kumbaya....

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Imagine all the people, living life in peace...Youhou ouhouou, you may say, i'm a dreamer, but i'm not the only one.

I hope someday you join us, and the world will be as one!

Kevin/Robbie/Larry - I sincerely appreciate the education on CITES.

I've looked at a lot of the Brazilian the Ebay vendor in question offers and frankly a lot of it really doesn't do a lot for me in terms of appearance. Given the volume of sales they do and if it is without proper CITES documentation I am amazed they haven't been shut down by now.

    

Don't worry, be happy......!

Oh, and you CAN say "no" to Brazilian rosewood. Ivory is pretty, too.

   I've heard and seen some stories about the farmers who have tried to execute the intended plan for alot of the land that has been stripped in the Rainforest by moving onto it and beginning to plant. Most have failed miserably because of the conditions there that present more hardship in farming than can be overcome without huge investments in specialized machinery and supplies. Hopefully, some of the land will be able to enjoy productivity in some capacity in the future.

    It really would be a shame to see it lay forever as dead acreage after so many centuries of providing the perfect growing environment for some of the most beautiful ans exotic woods in the world.

   I've never purchased Brazilian from an overseas source, but have received documentation from a pair of domestic vendors back in the mid 90s with wood orders which I forwarded to the owners of the guitars built from it. I made a few large log purchases of Brazilian Rosewood over the years, but they were from very long standing family owned mill business that had stored the wood for several decades before I came in and stumblied on it in their warehouses. In each case, they had no clue what the wood was and were just glad to have someone come in to buy it all up from them. One log yielded more than 120 sets of beautiful wood.

   The business that I'd bought it from was an elevator paneling shop that went out of business in 1981 and had begun to sell of their veneer cutting equipment and wood stock after the father or original owner had moved to Florida and left the business to be liquidated by his two sons. They were tearing it down to put up a New York style deli and a Jiffy Lube.

With those logs, each of the businesses had their invoices or receipts from their original purchases well before CITES initation....one way back in the 50s.

   I'm curious now as to how one goes about locating the CITES information and acquiring documentation so I'll be digging around to gather some info on it. God knows I'll have a little time over the next couple of months.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

CITES is about far more than just a few species of Hardwoods like BRW. CITES is a well recognized international treaty that enforces legal penalties for the sale and distribution of rare and endangered animals, flowering plants like some rare orchid species and trees. Ivory is covered in the same treaty.

There are many prosecutions of cases involving CITES but the ones that are usually heard about is people trafficking in rare animals. Plants are harder to track as once they are outside fo the point of origin they can be propogated which makes it tough to prove time and date of importation.

For woods like BRW it is even harder in that BRW bans date from 1992. The burden of proof is that the wood was harvested and or processed before that date and it is too hard to pin down based on a visual inspection of BRW.

To apply for a CITES certificate for existing wood that you have that you wich to export you must show evidence such as a bill of sale and the ability to identify the particular lot of wood in order to get the CITES documentation.

I build classical guitars and quite often build using BRW. I am fortunate enough to have a few dozen sets of BRW dating from the 60's and 70's but can mot meet the burden of proof as to dating wihout digging through paperwork that is 30 years old (if I still have it).

Therefore if I build a classical guitar from BRW I probably cant sell it to an international buyer or risk it being seized at some border. What I have done for sets that are destined for international orders is obtain sets with CITES documentation that then are included as part of the sale of the instrument so that ownership/legality will never be a question. There are less and less sources that still have stock with documentation.

Would you post a picture of your documentation?

I've seen lots of wood, but never any paperwork.

I did once request confirmation of CITES compliance from this Brazilian vendor, and heard nothing back. I lost interest at that point.

Bear in mind, that even if you disregard ethical considerations, it only takes an amateur woodworker in customs to at the very least have your purchase confiscated. Though I haven't heard of this happening with small packages, I have had parcels of as few as four or five sets opened by curious customs officers (one such was indeed from Brazil, though not BRW.)

Steve

I am on the road traveling for work so I will not be able to post a picture of the CITES documentation until I get back next Friday.

The documentation I have at the moment is from Australia which I obtained from a timber supplier that had records showing when the wood was imported to Australia. These types of stockpiles are still around but very few dealers are willing to go to the effort to obtain the CITES certificate as it is very time consuming as well as expensive.

If a dealer has to spend many hours and lots of back and forth communications to get a CITES certificate, then there efforts rapidly erode any profit they have built into the wood. Likewise if I am offering a guitar with its corresponding CITES certificate then the price I ask for the guitar should be able to justify the extra cost of obtaining BRW that is certified.

Note that CITES is mostly about the international sale of rare and endangered species so within the same country, it is a different story although each country may treat it differently. Obviously in Brazil there is both legal and illegal sources of BRW but it is still the challenge of getting it out of the conutry legally without obtaining the required CITES certificate.

I was talking to Georege Lowden a week ago and he's stopping using BRW because of the nightmare that this paperchase causes......

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[QUOTE=Shawn] Obviously in Brazil there is both legal and illegal sources of BRW but it is still the challenge of getting it out of the conutry legally without obtaining the required CITES certificate.[/QUOTE]

That would be called smuggling and there's no way it can be legalized.

If legal CITES certificates could be obtained easy it would be self-defeating....everyone would have them..legal or otherwise.