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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:31 am 
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I like the McPherson cantilevered neck design. I have never seen or played one of their guitars, so I don't know how they sound to me.   Their claims, like all marketing claims seem to push it a bit.   I do not like the looks of the guitars with that sound hole. But I do like that neck design.
Has anyone tried making a guitar with a neck like that?
What do you think of that design?
Have you been temped to try one?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:06 pm 
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Steve, I too have been tempted to give it a try...

I wonder if it can be as simple as just sanding/removing material from under the FB to let it float above the top?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:18 pm 
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Howard Klepper does it also.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:38 pm 
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Very interesting way of doing this, i'd be tempted as well, if there is any tutorial on how to go about this, count me in!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:31 pm 
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It boggles me how something used by Stauffer in Europe almost 200 years ago could be considered 'unique' and be 'patent pending'. C. F. Martin even made some guitars with necks like that after he came to the USA.

<shakes head in bafflement>



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:27 pm 
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Indeed Kevin. Just like the 'fan' fretted instruments. That's been around for hundreds of years, still, Novax has a patent on it now...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:46 pm 
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   The idea of cantilever is an attempt to get the string to pull more horizontal to the SB. Giving the guitar a more harp-like sound, as I understand it. I don't really know if it works or not, I just think it looks cool!

     Patent Pending is a great way to get something registered where as you don't really have patent, but if somebody comes along, and makes trouble, you are there first. The "patent pending" Gidson humbucking pickups was an example of this I believe.

    It used to, and may still be, that if you left your process/invention in "patent pending" the prints wouldn't be released for public purview. There were advantages to leaving the patent stalled.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:43 am 
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[QUOTE=Billy T]    The idea of cantilever is an attempt to get the string to pull more horizontal to the SB. Giving the guitar a more harp-like sound, as I understand it.[/QUOTE] I'm not thinking about that at all. I'd like to keep the same angle and have an adjustable neck that would not dampen the soundboard as much.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:27 am 
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As far as I can tell based on my minimal experience, I don't think the cantilevered neck would do much for the sound... IMO
sure you can have more top movement but how much difference would that make? if not properly braced at the upper bout you could have some serious "bellying" at the soundhole.

The cantilevered neck may offer other benefits and if done in conjunction with an adjustable feature it would be great...but I think much better sound may not be one of the benefits.

Like Hesh, I too was not impressed with the one I played. Looked pretty weird too! peterm39005.7302662037

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:30 am 
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[QUOTE=SteveS] [QUOTE=Billy T]    The idea of cantilever is an attempt to get the string to pull more horizontal to the SB. Giving the guitar a more harp-like sound, as I understand it.[/QUOTE] I'm not thinking about that at all. I'd like to keep the same angle and have an adjustable neck that would not dampen the soundboard as much. [/QUOTE]

Steve,

I don't do a full cantilever, but very much believe in freeing up the upper bout of the soundbaord via an extended neck supporting a free floating fingerboard over the body and adjustable neck joint. I have documented my reasoning and how I build this on my website here.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:34 am 
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Dave, your design is pretty cool. Do you have a picture showing the neck joint at the guitar?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:51 am 
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[QUOTE=peterm] Dave, your design is pretty cool. Do you have a picture showing the neck joint at the guitar?
[/QUOTE]

Peter,

i'm not quite sure what you mean, but here are some of the guitar around the neck area - is that what you meant?:




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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:14 am 
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It always kind of bothered me the FB bound to the SB. It didn't seem quite right considering trying to keep the SB as light as possible.

   I've never played a McPherson, I guess I'll have to take a drive to West LA music and try one.

Looking at the bracing I'm pretty sure the problem's not with the cantilevered neck. The carbon fiber inserts, as well as the seperate bracing from the SB, and bridge plate look interesting but that's probably all there is to say about it.

    I'm not really concerned about how a guitar looks as to layout, but if it doesn't sound and play well, what's the use of it!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:39 pm 
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Right now I'm not interested in trying this design, but I have a couple of questions for you, Dave.

How wide is the gap between the FB extension and the guitar top?

Does the top ever vibrate enough up there to get a buzz by touching the FB?

Ron

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:19 pm 
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[QUOTE=old man] Right now I'm not interested in trying this design, but I have a couple of questions for you, Dave.

How wide is the gap between the FB extension and the guitar top?
Ron[/QUOTE]

Ron,

It depends on the action it is set up for. I have it set up for me with 4-5/64" on the high E and 6-7/64" on the low E and the widest gap is around 0.008". Here's the best pic I could do:



[QUOTE=old man]
Does the top ever vibrate enough up there to get a buzz by touching the FB?

Ron[/QUOTE]

No. The fingerboard extension is glued to a 20mm thick part of the neck extension that covers all apart from two small strips at the edges. The aim is to keep the fingerboard as rigid as possible all the way up the neck to give the fretted notes as even a sustain as possible:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:15 pm 
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Dave, that guitar, Russells' little London Plane one, Steve Ks Ambrosia, and anything by Joshua French are among the guitars I truly, truly covet.

My neck extension is only 12mm thick and a little wider than yours as I also run my CF rods the full length of it, like you I have abandoned bolting the extension down and yes, no buzzes. I don't use a M&T either just a butt joint
Colin

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:58 pm 
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Colin,

I covet this guitar too -that's why I'm keeping it As well as to evaluate the stability of the adjustable neck joint over a long time period.

I would like to do a butt joint as well, as with the cf buttress braces the neck block could be made a lot smaller. I'm trying to work out how to leave enough "swivel" for the neck in using insert bolts rather than the barrell ones. I have the beginnings of a "cunning plan" that I hope to try out soon (that doesn't involve turnips )

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:08 am 
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Lets hope your cunning plan doesn't involve slug jugling

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:20 am 
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I'll put in my two cents worth here as well (some of this is more or less repeating what others have already said).

If you simply float the fretboard tongue over the soundboard by removing wood from the underside of the fretboard, or attaching the neck so as to leave a gap under there, while not changing anything else about the neck joint or the structure of the guitar, you'll have two problems: First, the guitar may collapse, because the glued-down fretboard tongue of a typical guitar, supported by the big transverse brace in the upper bout, is part of the structural integrity of the guitar, i.e. how it holds up to string tension. Second, any notes fretted above the body joint will sound dead because the fretboard tongue is not rigid enough by itself. Hence, designs like David's and others, which support the fretboard tongue, and also -- not shown in David's pics, but I'm pretty sure he does this -- provide greater internal support for the neck block with buttresses of some kind, so that the neck/upper bout structure is rigid.

Personally, I believe that joints like this are well worth exploring and pursuing for all the reasons that have been stated: First, separating the structure that supports the neck from the soundboard, so that the soundboard can be braced for optimal sound and more of it's area can be actual soundboard. Second, allowing for an adjustable neck joint, which is, in my mind, clearly the best way to make adjustments to action. Third, allowing for the elevation of the fretboard and changing of the neck angle in relation to the soundboard -- guitars made this way may not sound "better" to any given set of ears, but they do seem to be louder and to have desirable acoustic attributes.

I'm working on my own design (very similar to some others, notably Gary Southwell's) on the two instruments I'm building right now. My progress is very slow due to limited time right now, but I'll post some pics when I get to this construction.

I'll throw in my .02 on McPhersons as well. Haven't played 'em... my comment is on aesthetics. I applaud them for their innovation. I'm always surprised by how conservative so many people are. I don't happen to like their design very much, visually, but not because it's different from traditional guitars. I don't really like the aesthetics of many traditional designs. It's all subjective, but in my opinion, many guitars' shapes and overall aesthetic designs are ill-conceived. To my eye, McPherson didn't get the curves right, but neither did Martin when they came up with the Dread or the OM. Now, the OLF SJ, THERE'S a gorgeous shape if you ask me -- my hat's off to Michael. I also like several of the more unusual shapes designed by makers (both historical and contemporary) with unique visions and the courage to be original, and would much rather see more of those than more of the same old same old. Hope I haven't ticked anybody off... just my opinion.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:08 am 
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[QUOTE=SteveS] I like the McPherson cantilevered neck design. I have never seen or played one of their guitars, so I don't know how they sound to me.   Their claims, like all marketing claims seem to push it a bit.   I do not like the looks of the guitars with that sound hole. But I do like that neck design. [/QUOTE]

What is it that you like about the neck design?Howard Klepper39006.5525462963

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:35 am 
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Thanks, Dave,   very nice! and nicely done.

Ron

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:21 am 
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From a classical guitarmakers view point the upper bout is almost dead.
Some will disagree but classical string do not have enough energy to move the whole top.
I think it is well advised to keep a steel string strong in this area also!
Time has a way of pulling your guitar together!

All the classical players That I've asked if they ever wanted or tried this style of neck told me that the only advantage to them was being able to play above the 12th fret without a cutaway and that the extra f.b. height above the body made fingering easier.
Sharon Isbin actually said I do not play this type of guitar for it's sound-because it's easier for me to reach the upper frets!

www.collinsguitars.comMike Collins39006.6836226852

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:56 am 
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I've played a McPherson once, and thought it sounded nice. But to my ear is was too boomy in the bass, and the guitar was extremely heavy. I was really suprised when I picked it up. There was good note separation and the highs were nice, but the bass drowned out everything. I actually like the shape, just not the sound hole. The cantilevered neck doesn't bother me either. But for the amount of money, I don't think they are worth it. Just my .02.
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