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Well those of us that build for commission and sell to out of state clients may want to know this can happen to you.

By federal law if your bank chooses they can lock your account for a period of 10 working days from the date of deposit on a check over $300 and out of the local banking area. it also does not mater if the check clears prior to the ten day deadline.

I deposited a final payment on a commission on Tuesday of last week. On Friday of last week my online banking showed the deposit as posted in full from 12:01am till 3:01pm. At which time on there was a debit memo post to my account for the amount of the deposit. Well as fait would have it I bought materials for my next build and some tooling between the time the Online banking showed the deposit as posted in full with no holds and the time they debuted my account the amount of the deposit. With the debit memo deducted from my account I was suddenly $300 in the hole plus 10 $35 overdraft fees. That is $350 of overdraft fees.

Well of course I went to my bank to find out what the deal is and was informed because I had a n overdraft of $200 2 years ago due to a bad deposit my another client (but local not out of state) the invoked this hold.

The part that really gets to me is that the check cleared according to the clients bank This morning and will be on today's transfers at my bank, but the hold does not come off till the end of the ten day hold period no matter when the funds arrive in my account. So I have $1k in my account, not pending anything but till the 31St i can not touch it.

I'm so mad I want to spit.

After raising some civil cain over this They have agreed to drop the 10 overdraft fees after the 31st. Isn't thait nice MichaelP39013.5939467593

Change banks...when we accept these inequities they continue to rape and pillage.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

That's not legal in our state. They have to make the funds available asap.

May I politely suggest keeping some spare money in your account to avoid overdraft possibilities? I know money can be tight, and like most folks I live paycheck to paycheck, but we force ourselves to keep a few hundred extra in there just to avoid those unpleasantries. The other option is to use a credit card in those instances where you may run into that situation, and pay the bill as soon as it comes due.Don Williams39013.6091203704

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

ARRRGH. I feel for you, Michael.

PLEASE change banks, if it is at all practical. We gotta show them bums (I would rather use another b-word) that we don't take kindly to being treated like doormats. I seethe when I hear of businesses that have OUR money take such draconian measures when there's just the slightest risk that they might lose a few bucks. What happened to the idea of serving people who trust you with their money? Let me guess -- this wasn't some small local bank or credit union?

I think we're in a heap of trouble as a society as businesses get bigger and bigger, buying up more and more of the competition, which gives them even more license to extort money from us working stiffs. Makes you wonder what our universities' MBA programs are teaching our children where the graduates learn these "techniques".

<rant/> Sorry, this is your thread.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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Don it is federal law if there has ever been an over draft on your account the bank can enforce this hold. In our state if you make a deposit after 3:00pm you can draft from those funds after 9:00am the next day. You will be liable for overdrafts if the deposit does not clear. This Federal Law can only be enforced if there has bee an overdraft on the account in a 24 month period, and is a national i.e. Federal law.


Anyway you cut it it is wrong. I can understand the hold till the deposit clears. What I don't understand is why a bank can hold those funds hostage till the end of a 10 working day period.

I've had similar situations with my bank, but have always been able to clear
them up by going in and very nicely talking it over with the staff. Delays in
availability of funds are much more the norm in business accounts. The
problem I had was that although funds may have been withheld for 5-10
days, after two days they automatically appear as available when I check my
online banking.

Remember that the nicer you are, the better your chances of the bank
wanting to cooperate with you. When you find this not to be true then it's
time to switch banks.

David Collins39013.6210069444

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

you are doing THEM a favour by banking there.

if a coffee shop treated you like this would you go back?

if one of the sponsors on here treated you like that, would you use them again?

if you were stung by a seller on Ebay would you go back?

CHANGE BANKS!!!!!!

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[QUOTE=Hesh1956] [QUOTE=JJ Donohue] Change banks...when we accept these inequities they continue to rape and pillage.[/QUOTE]

Yep - time for a new bank and perhaps a national bank that is in your area like Chase.....[/QUOTE]

It is Chase

I have to give a plug to Credit Unions. I can't speak for them all obviously, but typically they are smaller and more customer driven. More like they serve a "club" of people due to some restrictions on joining. We get personal service with a Cheers "everybody knows your name" type of thing. Just my $.02 worth.

When you change banks, make sure the manager knows why you are leaving. They may not care, but it can help with the closure. Good luck.

As a retired Banker, I maybe can shed some light on this situation. First, banks have the authority to place what they refer to as a "collection hold" on any deposited item you put through your account. Generally, these would be large in dollar amount, out of state, and many times personal checks issued to their customer. The criteria for making this decision is a "credit" decision. There may in fact be some federal law that would specify this action, but banks have had this right through either State or National Charters since the beginning.

Once upon a time, checks cleared through a very antiquated system and banks deposit all these checks through the Federal Reserve or a local clearing house association. Banks would recieve "contingent credit" on the total amount, but it would take a few days to get to the issuing bank to actually and physically clear. The bank would have "use" of the funds as they still do today, and the clearing process is now much better automated. If the check was no good "NSF" or "Insufficient Funds" the bank the check was drawn against would return the check. This as well takes a few days for the physical piece of paper to wind its way back to the depositing bank. Things still take place the same way, just faster.

Now let me share some ideas in approaching your bank to resolve. First of all, you made this deposit in "good faith" and the Teller and/or and Officer of the bank should have notified you either upon deposit or by telephone as to the availability of those funds. Secondly, if they in fact created a debit from your account and in fact returned checks NSF against this deposit, they are outside of the law. If a check is presented for payment on an account that a deposited item has been placed on "collection hold" the check can be returned, but not insufficient, it is returned "Uncollected Funds". They should not have charged you the fee for bad checks.

Why this is important, a check returned NSF is prosecutable, one returned for the real and turthful reason "Uncollected Funds" is not. Most folks in retail and banking know these reasons for a returned check, and in an Uncollected Funds situation they merely re-deposit.

Overall, the practice is a questionable one for banks in my view, which I have shared over the years. First, they are not letting you use the funds, but they are using the funds the same day you deposited, earning interest, loaning to folks, meeting liquidity calls from the Fed Reserve clearing house.

Change banks, don't go to one of the large Chase or Nationally positioned banks, you are just a number and the Officers have little to no authority, that is a fact. Find a locally owned and operated Bank either State or National Charter, makes no difference. There you are a "customer".

In the future, when you do get a large personal check from someone to deposit, go into the bank, see your officer and have them initial it for immediate credit. Most of the time, they initial, then you go give it to the teller and you have immediate use. If you don't then a Junior Operations Officer will look at your deposite, generally every bank has a dollar figure that goes into the review or large item bin. They pull up your account, and if you don't have enough in your account to cover, they can put it on hold.

Hope this was helpful,

Michael, call me if you need any help, I would be more than happy to try and get your $350.00 in fees back. Also, if you visit with anyone, make it the highest ranking individual at the bank.

Mike

I hate banks, no offence to any of you who work for them, heck my wife worked for a bank for several years, but I still think they ALWAYS have their own best interest in mind, NEVER EVER YOURS.

That's why I think it best to be your own bank. I'm sure that there are several institutions in the US that offer lines of credit based on your homes' value yes. I also think that there is a Manulife Financial down there, or equivilant. This is the financial institution that we use (not promoting, I don't care who you use really) and we have been very very pleased with there Manulife One product. No more mortgage, car payments, credit card payments. Just one big line of credit. If your disciplined, this is the best thing going. Get this and get rid of the bank. That's my $0.02, which if I were a bank would have cost you about $5.00 because of service fees etc....

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I had a similar experience with CitiBank last Christmas. I deposited a
paycheck and they didn't make it available even though the slip said it
was. In the mean time I bought a sandwhich for lunch, a mountain dew,
and something else. Because they didn't make the money available, I lost
more than $100 in overdraft fees. They wouldn't refund them so I closed
my account (and lost control of my temper).

When I went to a local credit union, I couldn't open an account because
they put me on ChexSystems.

It's all in the clear now, but I cash my paycheck at my new credit union,
put my monthly in savings, and keep the rest hidden in my room. This
isn't smart but it feels smarter than using a bank for now.

Mike I just got an update and an email from JPMorgan Chase, they have removed the overdrafts fees from my account, but the funds are still not available and according to them, they will not be and all debits will show as pending but my balance will show as over drafted until the 31st regardless of the fact that the check cleared his bank this morning.

MichaelP, at least you got your fees back, this is a "bank policy" which has nothing to do with reality. Now they have used your funds, contingent credit goes to real credit today, but yet you have to wait another week. Find a new local bank, stay away from these large institutions, in banking bigger is not better, never has been.

I will look at my Bankers Association stuff and see if I know someone in your area, if I do I will let you know and get you hooked up with them.

Mike

      About ten years ago there were some pretty sweeping changes made in the banking laws and they went by almost completely unheeded. Most was about drug money, but it also benefits the banks, "just by coincidence", of course.

      A friend of mine years ago was doing business, even though he lived in California, with a Canadian bank. The service was substatially better then, and I'm sure it's even better now. There's a little more immediate problems, but one doesn't have the G-man looking down your underwear evertime you open your check book.

[quote=James Orr] and keep the rest hidden in my room. This isn't smart but it feels smarter than using a bank for now.[/quote]

   Sorry James, I understand what your saying and I know of a guy that does just that but, all of that, is smarter than telling people! Just a well intentioned warning! Sorry Bud!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Well It seems that the check in question actually cleared the bank it was written on the day before they put the hold on the account. My bank paid all my transactions and credited my account for the Overdraft fees, But They goofed up big time. They returned one of my transactions to the recipient as NSF. I informed this person of the circumstances and bought my check from him so he is good but the check is clearly marked Returned for NSF. I have turned this check over to my attorney and he promised he would handle it. Mike Spencer was right, they can return it marked uncollected but not NSF. and according to my attorney they miss handled this deposit in a couple different ways. First The check cleared 24 hours prior to my bank issuing the hold, and they knew it. Second they misrepresented on my online baking that the deposit had been returned NSF, which it had not, It cleard when presented. I have no idea where this will go from here, that is up to my attorney. However I have my account back and access to my money.MichaelP39014.7093865741

Michael,
I generally hate getting attorneys involved. But, I think that in the circumstance it is the right thing to do. Banks that operate like that need to know that they will be held accountable for their actions. There is no telling how many times they have done this to other people and got away with it. Banks can be real good or real bad. You as a customer will not likely make nearly the impact that a good attorney will.
In a very real sense, what you are doing helps not just you, but the rest of us.
Thank you! SteveS39014.7558680556

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Michael-

Sorry for your problems. I have had an account with my company's credit union for 30+ years and they are friendly and very convenient. I would definitely recommend finding a smaller, more user-friendly bank or credit union. I have had to open checking accounts from time to time with larger banks and always had problems. With the Delta Employees CU, not one problem in 30 years.

Good luck-

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John Lewis
Wannabe builder owned by 2 crazy dachshunds

Sorry to hear this. Sounds like it is resolving itself through your inconvenience. Tales like this makes my blood boil, as I have gone round 'n round w/ banks from time to time. Chase being one of them. It's such a hassle!

For the most part, the larger banks will never see any of my $$. I do hold a checking account w/ a smaller institution in town, that knows me. I do have 'Overdraft Protection', which generally covers any screw-ups that I might incur, saving me the anguish & frustration of overdrafts should they occur. Especially w/ all the auto-debiting going on for monthly bills. For all intent purposes though, my bank is in my boot!

This is rather off topic, but it does include a "Commission" and is a great lesson for everyone on the wily ways of today's financial institutions. As my last installment (maybe) on this topic.

MichaelP, you have what looks like 3 - Independant, single location banks in the Odessa area, two appear to be National Charters and one a State Chartered bank. I would use the State Chartered, since I am a Texan but any of the three are better than Chase.

Banks when looking at deposits, again, they have a magic amount say $2,000.00 that any and all deposits of that size are placed in a separate bin at the Teller station and are reviewed by one of the Junior Officers initially. If your account is "Officer Assigned" then they will contact your personal Bank Officer for approval for immediate credit, if you don't have an assigned Bank Officer on your account, the Junior Officer will make the decision. He/She will pull up your account, look at deposit history and balance information, averages, etc.

Two Points here for you Guitar builders

1. Go in and visit your banker and explain what you are doing and how things work. Take a guitar with you to show as you tell your story
2. If you don't have a bank officer on your account, get one, see #1

If you work for a company and your account gets a deposit every two weeks for say $2,000.00 and your average account balance is say $1,000.00. And lets say that you bring in a personal check from someone for $3,000.00 to deposit off of a commission project. This would be a red flag to the Junior Officer who does not know who you are or who the check writer is either. Bankers immediately look at the "what if" scenario on this account. What if this check is bad? What if the customer spends the money and it is returned, can he make it good? These types of things are at play. Certainly the age of the account and other factors play a roll, but this simply is what goes through their minds, don't ask how I know this.

First of all, the banker you are visiting with will think Wow! you build handmade guitars which is pretty rare, especially in the desolate tundra of Odessa, Texas. Secondly, good bankers do business with people, bad bankers do business with formula's, policies, numbers and rules.

If you had come to my office, told your story, showed me one of your beautiful guitars, I would have ask this simple question. "What can we do or do you need from us to help your business grow?"

Of course I am Old School, but I think most of you would be surprised with the reception and helpfulness you get when you tell your story and pursue a relationship with a Banker, not a person who works for a Bank and might have a title, but a Banker who works for the type of institution that they make their own decisions, not a group of guys in a smoke filled committee room in New York.

I don't want folks to get down on Banks or Bankers, there are many a fine Bank located in nearly every town in America, that provide good services to business and folks. You just have to seek them out, take the first step, tell your story and begin a relationship, it is really very easy and these types of situations will be avoided. Remember, hometown Banks or Credit Unions are the best IMHO

Good Luck MichaelP, I hope things work out which I am sure they will.

Mike

I ahve a friend who is VERY senior in an internation bank that I happen to have taken out my endowment mortgage with 15 years ago.

HE wrote the letter of complaint, and I signed it.

when the response came, HE did the writing of My reply.

?3000 later and on HIS advice I have a new mortgage at a different lender.

But out of respect for him I'll not say which bank.....

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I have lived in Thailand, China, Belize, and Vietnam most of the time since 1990. Getting money to our account in the USA has aways been difficult. Whenever we know somebody is coming to visit, I often order things by credit card and they bring the stuff with them. I always try to get them to take cash back with them and they send a check to my bank when they get home.

You can guess that there have been some problems with this system over the years.

Fortunatly the internet has made banking business a whole lot easier.

Here's the important thing. Somehow my wife has arranged with the bank to transfer any overdrafts to the bank credit card and we pay up in due time.

I have been burned by so many banks, mainly the big ones. Wells Fargo was pretty good for a few years until my relationship with them turned sour. I got sick of the overdraft charges, which while some of them were my fault, most were unreasonable. The last one took the cake. I was a member of 24hr fitness and filled out paper work to change my bank to Washington mutual, because I couldn't take all the extra charges any more . It had become like a joke at my expense it seemed. So I took out all my money and put it into WAMU and told 24 hr. fitness to use the new bank. Three months later I received a bill from Wells Fargo for over 300 dollars, on a 35 dollar bill 24hr fitness hadn't told me it would send there, after I'd given them my new bank info. I still haven't payed the bill. Wells Fargo won't reverse the OD charges, and 24 hr fitness says I should've known it would take another month before they'd charge the new bank. This is another sad chapter in the destruction of my credit report. I just hate the way they send a charge back and forth so many times before letting you know. Needless to say, I closed my 24 hr fitness account too. Running will have to do.

One of the worst parts is like with seemingly any money related thing these days, having to fight that overyly persistent battle that's like pulling teeth, in order to get justice.
My heart goes out to you.nickton39016.2370949074

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