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Hmm... My dad graduated 2nd in his class from one of the country's top
schools for engineering. From the same school's law school. Created an
alcohol diversion program after being appointed by the governor.

And worked in a cotton field.

I sure wish I had what it takes to do the fields...

[QUOTE=Pwoolson] Heck yeah, it has flaws. Many flaws. One of which is that people aren't required to vote.
You are right about other parties not being taken seriously but they can still conceivably win an election (I know it's a stretch) if they carried enough states.
This is dangerously close to becoming a politically charged debate so I'll back off a bit. This is something that I'm passionate about and until I hear a GOOD excuse for not doing so, there is no excuse for not voting. [/QUOTE]

One small clarification on my comments earlier. I am generally referring to individual races, rather than the entire process of voting.

Usually there are enough issues on the ballot to be reason enough to show up to vote, even if you choose not to participate.

I am not upset (not even close) about this. However, I stand by my original remarks. Abstaining from participation is a choice.


Told you I was going to mix it up.   
Everybody go read your Ayn Rand...   

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Some times we have no choice. We can vote for bad, or we can vote for worse......Orrrr we can express our feelings with a write in vote. I got 1 vote for governor of Illinois last time around.

AlA Peebels39018.9347222222

Do away with the pork, do away with the unearned, fat pensions, pay a reasonable salary for service, give them the same health coverage we have. Then you will attract people who want to serve us and not themselves.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

   I think there's a lot of justifiable anger in the country that interferes with the sentient process involved in voting. I really feel bad when people like Brock don't vote because I value that kind of input. Even if his vote cancels mine I would still prefer his and others vote.

The process of democracy is not always to win, but sometime lose and let the outcome be carried through, either good or bad. If I wanted to win I'd vote for somebody other than Emo Philips. He hasn't a chance in H-E-double hockey sticks

    It's intersting that there is so much reference to "campaign financing". The real word for this is corruption. How do we stop congressmen from taking money, for not doing their jobs, vote them out, no matter your personal affliation or lack thereof.

    The present system has everybody chasing tails while the moneyed interests win everytime and will continue unless we, together, stop it.
Billy T39019.0786689815

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

[QUOTE=Pwoolson]And sorry to our friends that live outside the US.[/QUOTE]

You think it's not important to us who's running the USA? Man, it's important to everybody...

Vote, and do it wisely.

PaulB39019.2808217593

I also think everyone should vote, though I respect your right Not to. There are many elections where I deem it a waste of my time, but I vote anyway. My children have learned from me the importance of voting. Some day it could really make a difference and I want them to feel that obligation/priviledge.

Even if you just vote for the lesser of two evils, that is better than giving it to the greater of two evils.

Also, it was mentioned earlier that "anyone can run for office", that is only true in theory. In America, one must be a very well heeled millionaire to run with a chance of winning. It's all about money and power, it is not about serving our nation.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=old man] Even if you just vote for the lesser of two evils, that is better than giving it to the greater of two evils.[/QUOTE]

I emphatically disagree with this. If both choices are evil, then why participate? If two guys walk up to you on the street and one says I am going to rob and kill you, and the other says I am just going to kill you, and they then tell you you have a choice and it is a privledge to get to decide... isn't that absurd? How is the political process any different?

I am certainly not advocating NOT voting. My original point was when faced with this situation not choosing either candidate in races like this is a viable third alternative.

Democracy is built upon the social contract and us LENDING our rights to the government. When we participate in elections where the only choice is "bad" or "worse" we do nothing but validate the process. I say that choosing not to participate in that race **** IS **** voicing an opinion.


*** see isn't this more fun than watching football.   

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Personally, I think our electoral college is also part of the problem, as are the way districts are divided up.

As some have mentioned, it doesn't matter who we vote for, because they are ony going to go into their job looking to protect their butt and get elected for another term. The only way they can do that is to cowtow to special interest groups who will fund their campaigns and to their part's agenda, effectively taking your and my desires out of the equation.
We have no voice, unless we also tow the party line in our thinking. But then we're just lemmings.

I like Hesh's idea. Make it so that everyone of us have the potential of being called on to eventually participate in the government by serving a short-term position.

It would be nice if we could become a government "by the people for the people". But it's been taken out of our hands.

He who controls the spice...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

There is another alternative to not voting. You can alway spoil your ballet. I have done this a few times when both candidates were bad. Go in and either vote for your prefered candidate and then write over top the issue you dissagree on or draw one more box and write Other and check it. Yes the ballet is spoiled and not recorded as to why but the scutineers see the ballet and can report back to there party. A number of years ago we organised a campaine here in Canada to do just that. We encouraged people to vote for their party of choice and then write the issue on the ballet to spoil it. There was the highest number of spoiled ballets in Canadfian history and one of the Major parties changed it stand on that issue before the next election.

Every ballot should have a place to vote for "none of the above".

Al

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] [QUOTE=old man] Even if you just vote for the lesser of two evils, that is better than giving it to the greater of two evils.[/QUOTE]

I emphatically disagree with this. [/QUOTE]


You have the option of not voting. However, one of those evils will be in control, and you then have to live with the results of that "reign". Whether I like the candidates or not, I'm glad that I have a chance to lessen the impact.

BTW,after that fellow robs you, he might change his mind and not kill you. Kinda like real politics.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=A Peebels] Every ballot should have a place to vote for "none of the above".

Al[/QUOTE]
It's called a write in candidate and I would strongly advocate using this as a form of protest rather than staying away from the polls.

I'll admit, writing somone in is something I'll consider. It would be really
interesting to see how spoiling the ballots would effect things on a
national level here in America.

How many of you would say you're familiar with the united states
constitution?

FYI, I did a google search on Political Forums and came up with 36,500,000 hits for political forums.

SO, there__IS__ other places to discuss this.
It would make ME much happier if it were discussed there and not here.

Thanks.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Sorry Lance, but even luthiers have to vent.

Al

Sorry to get this started Lance. I was just trying to put forth a friendly reminder. I'm done.

May i finish with this please?

I agree with Paul that Voting is a duty and i agree with Brock when he says that not voting is also a way to voice an opinion.

Basicly though, every citizen of any given democracy should always be conscious of what it means to live in a supposed free society, to me, it is a priviledge. We should all read carefully our bills of rights and get involved publicly so we have a right to criticize our politicians.

Our freedoms and liberties can be taken away from us if we are not vigilant, main stream media could become am accomplice of hidden agendas from greedy politicians and powerful lobbyists who just seek to braiwash us with propaganda, let's all be careful i say.

Serge

Voting is part of Citizenship. Depending on what country you live in it can be a right, a priviledge, a duty, a responsibility, a protest, a resignation or none at all. In many countries the choice to vote or not to vote is not optional...many have no real chance to vote.

In some countries people will stand in line for hours or even days just for the opportunity...in some countries opposition parties dont just throw insults (vague or directed), they employ thugs to harm or kill people to discourage people from having a voice.

While choosing to not vote is a form of free expression afforded by living in a republic, political activism can take many forms...it is more about having a voice and deciding to use it to affect public opinion.

Sorry to sound too serious....now for a lighter answer

As far as defacing a ballot...the way to have a vote and still not be decisive it if your polling station uses paper ballots where you punch through the paper your choice...press lightly...the hanging or indented paper "chad" could make the difference between who is elected and who does not...Really!!!

Living in the Washington, DC area I am more convinced than ever that in the USA we really only have one party...sometimes they are seen as from "red" states, sometimes from "blue" but in the end both parties contain members that range from liberal to conservative.

When a mid term election of a member of congress can run into the millions of dollars then is that seat "bought" by way of advertising or won by merit by having won over the public opinion...

Shawn, you read my thoughts exactly, thanks for giving me a more intelligible voice!

So two guys walk into a bar.......which was really stupid cause the second guy should have ducked



The end.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I used to say that the difference between the "R" party and the "D" party (in the USA) was "left-handed liars and right-handed liars", or sometimes "liars in grey suits and liars in blue suits." To a degree, I still think that is true, as no one makes it into any high office without being "beholden" to many.

So, I didn't vote. For years...

Then, I decided I would vote, and checked out the folks running in the other parties, and voted for the best of them. I hate the fact that only 2 political parties even have a chance of placing someone into an elected position (or, into a position to get elected.)

However, right now in the politically polarized USA, it is impossible not to feel passionately that the group in power is either the worst gang of crooks to ever hold high office, or the greatest thing since sliced bread. It becomes extremely important to either throw the bums out or keep the bums out, depending on one's perspective.

If you read the party platforms of both the "R" party and the "D" party, it sure sounds like either party could govern adequately and be good stewards for the USA. But, if you look at the deeds of the particular individuals currently in power, I can't see how any voter could remain without passion. In reality, just exactly who they are beholden to does make a difference, a huge difference. And, like it or not, either "R" or "D" candidates will win in the current elections, so a vote for other candidates (or not voting) is simply allowing other "R" and "D" motivated voters to make the decision for you.

We in the USA most certainly do not live in a democracy; it is a democratic republic. We vote for individuals, and those individuals enact laws, and govern us, and tax us, and spend our tax dollars (and via deficit spending, spend dollars our grandchildren will need to pay) or exercise fiscal restraint, and declare wars or choose not to, and either mutate or protect treaties, conventions, and laws regarding torture and imprisonment, and choose which besieged peoples of the Earth to help and which to ignore.

Yes, the gang currently in power has more than ignited my passions. If both my legs were cut off, I would drag myself on bloody stumps to the polls to vote!

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia