Official Luthiers Forum!

Kenny Hill (the Santa Cruz classical builder) told me he saw this guy (in mexico) build a guitar with nothing more than a sharp knife for cutting and and a roll of string for clamping.Benito Huipe

_________________
Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Just a question from an "old guy"..Why don't you all build your own jig(s) to radius endblocks? That's what I did, along with a system to radius fingerboards, back and top braces and other items need to make the parts to build an instrument. The process helps you develop the creative problem solving part of the brain, which has many uses elswhere in your day to day activities. And there have to be several ways to skin these cats. No single way it "THE" answer. Personally, my jigs are not very difficult to conceive, relatively easy to build and work fine. They utilize my 20 inch disc sander, 6 inch belt sander, shaper table, router table or drill press to produce the desired part used in my "build system".
And, once you have established your basic components and the jigs to make them, it's quick and easy to knock out a special jig (or modify an existing one) to meet a special request from a customer for their instrument. If anyone is interested, perhaps I could assemble a photo collection of these jigs (with a staged in-use pose)for the group.
Lance...you want to add something like that in the photo section???

Hank

Hank,
That would be fantastic, as I would love to see it. The reason I started LuthierSuppliers was to help luthiers who didn't want to take the time to build jigs, either because the cost would be too high, or they could not produce an accurate enough jig with the tools they have. In addition to this, I think there is a need in the Luthier community for builders like me who are just getting starting, and do not have the right skills for making jigs that are accurate. I know Mario will probably chime in and say "well they shouldn't be building at all then." But like me, I built my first guitar with no wood working skills at all, and was able to complete about 60% of it with no help and very minimum power tools(drill press, dremel tool and belt sander). I built a bending form and bought some radius dishes. I used Robbie's binding set since I didn't have one. There are many times in the process that had I had a jig, I could have produced a more accurate cut. But I didn't even know there was a jig out there. So my company is also there to help the beginner luthier with jigs that will help them produce better results the first time around without causing them to spend days of research trying to figure out how to build one, to just find out that they don't have the skills or time to do it.

Hank great idea. I use the jig and technique link here and look at and made or modified alot of the stuff there. Suggestion is have some more post in that area. Look at John's truss rod jig. Very cool and easy. Maybe few photos and little bit of instruction and done. I see and use stuff from Mark Kett. I have like said bought the stuff that I have tried to do, but for some reason just didn't work for me. That has to do more with the m&t, line up to bridge, neck angle and those things along with the end wedge. I could do it, he just did a better job at a thing I struggled with, No regret. Most however I do on the fly, look at others photos and talk to them how it works and to do it. One thing about apprenticeship I didn't get from shcool is working with luthiers that build the molds, templates, jigs, whatever (even just hanging in shop with John or guy nearby) that helped me see and have hands on. I think Sylvan's seminar he is going to do it this area will be great and such a help to all of folks going and then sharing. The pros have to realize alot of folks are not pro's and maybe not even woodworkers or new and this is a hobby. Jigging up is a big deal and if not know what needed or how go about it can be expensive and big deal. I guess I am full time, but not do for living but other purposes. Semi Pro? Like I have mentioned before, I see a good profit in video's on how to make and use the jigs, molds, templates, cauls whatever needed to build. Get the basics, one then can modify for other sizes or particular needs. Like finish is just a portion of building and now getting alot of discussion, very little has been written or taught in this area. Even the schools have the stuff,but not teach much how do make them and very basic with demo in using them. Once I get back and started in shop again, full time on own. I know if a series of videos or books in this area not done, I'm going to. May patent all the jigs and books (just kidding from other threads) Someone might as well make the bucks and I'm not opposed to that. After all, all of us or most want to get to point of profit whether for support of hobby, or total income. More power to those making and selling jigs and tools, market place. More power to those who can do it all, enveious, more power to those who combo making and buying. That said, buy some wood, mark radii of end and head blocks with pencil and sand to comformation. Of the building process, this is among the easiest to do. Never thought of a special jig, but I guess I lack vision. As far as saving time, there may be more time in setting up the jig than just sanding it, don't know. Buy a big piece(s) of whatever want to make blocks with, take a day in shop and build a bunch for whatever models you make. When come time to make guitar take it off the shelve. Unless building big time and pro, what 6 may last a long time, Just my .02

Wheeeeew, is it me or has it been warm in here the past few weeks. Sounds like somebody needs more prune juice.

Sure Hank! Id love too

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

For years guitars (any instrument for that matter) were built entirely by hand. B. E.....Before Electricity. My point is that building these jigs will develop the skills to better work the materials used in the instrument. It's much easier to start working on 1/2" Birch plywood than it is .090" rosewood sides/backs. As for tools, I built my first guitar with less tools than you. If you lack woodworking experience, I would say you should take some courses...night school, adult education, Jr. College. Look around, you'll find something...perhaps even a private woodworker in your community.
   IMHO, there are too many folks trying to run before they can walk...and that is not confined to the luthiery community...in a wide variety of pursuits. If we are to continue to build acceptance of the "cottage industry" of luthiery...and most of us here fall into that category...then it behoves us to acquire the skills appropriate to the tasks at hand. Jigs will, and do, have their place...but not as a substitute or alternative to having the basic skill sets germane to what you are producing. If you have the skills, then you are a luthier. If not, you are an assembler of parts. There's quite a diffence. Chip Foose "builds" custom cars...Joe Schmoe at General Motors "assembles" car parts. Chip deserves the prices he gets for his custom efforts, design talents and experience. Joe gets an hourly wage and puts the same part on the cars as they pass by him.
Remember, when the power goes off, you still have your brain, hands and a sharp (hopefully) tool with which to work. And when the PC crashes, you ought to be able to grab a pencil, do your math and write a coherent sentence long hand.<G> Now there are some skills that are rapidly disappearing from too many of the general high school population.

There are some parts of building a guitar that I don't particularly like. I don't like making kerfing, making end blocks or doing the finish. I already farm out the finish work and buy the kerfing and I would gladly buy the blocks preradiused if they are not too pricey. This saves me more time to do the stuff I really like,(the part which I think adds to the uniqueness of the sound and look of my instruments) The more cooley work I can pay to have done the better I like it and it has nothing to do with craftsmanship.

so there

John...didn't you, sometime during your build career, do all those tasks that you would like to "subcontract" out now?
What I'm trying to get across to the folks is that you should know, and have done, the tasks sometime in your luthiery experience. (No, not felling trees or diving for abalone or building tuning machines) Later, you can opt for labor/time saving options (I, too, buy my kerfing...but I have made it in the past) as you see fit. But at least you can fall back on the basic skills when and if the need should arise. I think some of the newer folks here are doing themselves a disservice by not getting as much hands-on experience as possible. Then pick and choose which, if any, "streamline" actions you want to incorporate into your work. Remember "apprenticeships"...mainly a long gone activity in this country? Each of us should take on our own apprenticeship, of sorts, to learn and do all the tasks reasonably expected of us to complete an instrument.
Sort of like using a calculator for your math needs...when the battery dies, or the chip loses it's "mind", you had best know how to add, subtract, multiply, divide, etc. with a pencil and paper or you will be standing there, doing nothing but scratching your head.

But take kerfed linings just as an example - I can think of at least a dozen different sources where I can buy the stuff. When am I ever likely to need to fall back on the skill of making them?

I can see the point you're making, Hank, but I think you're getting too hung up on the idea of doing low-level tasks. When I used to be a programmer I used high-level languages, I didn't learn (and never needed) to program in machine code.

_________________
Pete
http://www.petewoodmanguitars.com

Assembly language rules!

Where can I buy good plywood and how much should it cost? Going down to the home center results in stuff that has more knots and voids than solid wood -- I was suprsed to note that all thicknesses of birch plywood have only one good side now. I'm not near any big cities. I've been thinking about going on a road trip to buy wood.

I think you can mailorder small sizes of Baltic Birch ply from Woodcraft. OK they are calling it Finish Birch plywood. You may try some hardwood stores or ask at a cabinet shop if you have one in your area, they may be able to give you a source if not some scrap pieces.John How38462.8207175926

_________________
Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Hank you are right. There is a rite of passage of sorts which goes along with the craft. I have done all of those things that I now farm out, and I did them reasonably well, just got bored with those jobs.

You know even Stradavarius farmed out the scrolls on his violins.

It's really easy to make your own plywood.

[QUOTE=LouisianaGrey] But take kerfed linings just as an example - I can think of at least a dozen different sources where I can buy the stuff. When am I ever likely to need to fall back on the skill of making them?

    

I can see the point you're making, Hank, but I think you're getting too hung up on the idea of doing low-level tasks. When I used to be a programmer I used high-level languages, I didn't learn (and never needed) to program in machine code.[/QUOTE]


   Until you want to try a new wood and kerf profile for a kerfing...say some Italian spruce to go with an Italian spruce top. I didn't run across a kerfing supplier that had that wood when I wanted to try it out. I doubt, too, that many would bend over backwards to cut you 4 pieces from wood you send them.


   Not at all do I favor ongoing repetition of "low-level tasks" if you don't have to/want to do them. I said you should do them sometime in your
career, then assess their usefulness vs. the alternatives and go from there. The earlier the better.
When you "high level" programmed, did you walk right in, sit down and write some "moon rocket landing" program or did you have to learn the nuances of the particular "language" you were using? A quick analogy I can think of right now is landing in China and being instantly fluent in it's language, to say nothing of any particular dialect. That ain't gonna happen. You are going to have to learn it from the ground up...maybe later when you are fluent you will use the colloquialisms to better communicate and stop using "proper" Cantonese (or whatever dialect), but you'll have to crawl before you walk, walk before you run.
I certainly wouldn't want some Doctor to walk in and start doing brain surgery on me when his specialty is Podiatry. He may have gone through med school, but I would like someone with a "tad" more experience working on the end of me that REALLY matters!<G>
Anyway, enough of this. We're wasting bandwidth as each will do what he wants in the way he wants to do it. As for me, I'm going back to the shop and finish shaping some necks.HankMauel38462.8405324074

Wow this thread just doesn't want to go away. Hey Hank, While your making necks, how bout I farm out a couple to ya, I need three. Actually necks are one of the things I enjoy doing as for me it is all pretty much hand work. I don't farm out much in the way of guitar parts. I have made my own linings both solid and kerfed however I do have better things to do with my time now than cut a zillion notches in a piece of wood but I haven't been able to get the spruce in the lining type I want for a while so you have a good point there. I pretty much make everything I use in my guitars or at very least resize it. Bindings are usually re-thicknessed and lately I have been resawing bindings into matching purflings. I even cut my own shell purfling strips for the current guitar I'm working on. Basically cause I'm too cheep to farm out this stuff. But if someones time is too valuable to do that stuff them go for it.

_________________
Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Eric,
Here is another source for Plywood.
http://www.woodnshop.com/hardwood/Baltic_Birch_Plywood.htm

I talked with my CNC guy tonight and he assured me that we could make a simple jig that would allow the luthier the ability to radius their own end blocks to whatever custom radius they are using. The way it would work, is you would draw your shape from the mold onto paper and fax to us. We would then scan that image into the computer and then let the CNC cut the exact radius. I don't know yet how much for this, but I'm guessing around $40-$50 for this custom jig. It may take a month from now to get it developed and tested, but I'll give you an update once it is ready. Thanks for all the input folks, it was helpful. Sorry to stir up the pot, but it was a useful exercise for us all to be able to get along even if we disagree.
Regards,
Tracy

I have to agree with the pros on this based on my personal approach to building guitars. Until I started building 2+ years ago, I had never done any detailed woodworking. It was only after purchasing some quality chisels, planes, saws and files that I really understood how wood likes to move under a sharp tool. I learned from chipping out wood that you really need to pay attention to the hardness, grain orientation and other characteristics in order to form it to your will. The better I got at this the more fun I was having. Since I never feel pressure to meet a deadline, I welcome the opportunity to experiment not only with the guitar wood, but also in making jigs. It's all new to me and I actually seek to do more on my own rather than buy production parts. That may change in time.

In the past few months, I've started using tools that require electricity...bandsaw, ROS, routers, belt sander. I certainly appreciate them more because I can compare their performance and speed to that acomplished by hand tools...not necessarily better but certainly faster.

Using hand tools has given me the confidence to try new and often difficult things because results occur more slowly as do the mistakes. I don't have a thickness sander so I'm learning to do this with planes and an ROS. It also saves me the trip to Amish country when I need plates thicknessed.

So, to each his own, but for me I'm still doing lots of bicep work for now and learning more than I ever could with the higher tech stuff.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com