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Can someone enlighten me to the differences between these two as well as how to handle them?
Thanks and happy Monday.Aoibeann39062.3280555556

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Aoibeann

Fish glue comes in a bottle much like titebond. It tacks up very qickly (about a minute) and needs about 24 hours for full cure. It dries very hard like HHG does. In my opinion, I think it's as good if not better than HHG for instrument applications. Plus the added benefit of having time to work rather than having to rush things makes it my glue of choice.

[QUOTE=Pwoolson] Fish glue comes in a bottle much like titebond. It tacks up very qickly (about a minute) and needs about 24 hours for full cure. It dries very hard like HHG does. In my opinion, I think it's as good if not better than HHG for instrument applications. Plus the added benefit of having time to work rather than having to rush things makes it my glue of choice. [/QUOTE]

Paul,

Not wanting to question your judgment but I read the attached stating that fish glue is a lot more hygroscopic than HHG but have no personal experiance, what is your opinion?

[QUOTE] Q: I was told that fish glue is just as good as hot hide glue, just as strong, and much easier to apply. What do you think about doing a player with it?

A: Fish glue is a "specialty glue" only. It is not designed to glue player actions together. It is mainly used for emulsions, but the pipe organ industry uses it to get an instant grip between leather and leather, or leather and cloth. It allows soft lambskin to be contoured around corners because of its cold tack properties. On the other hand, fish glue is very hygroscopic (meaning that it draws moisture from the air). Long-term humidity alone can disassemble parts put together with fish glue, whereas hot hide glue, once fully dry, can withstand about any amount of humidity without weakening, and over 400 degrees Fahrenheit without softening [/QUOTE]

HERE is the link where this came from and Fank Ford has the same link on very bottom of his page "I’ll stick with hide glue" page.

Cheers

Kimlarkim39062.3484027778

I'm not sure if MORE is accurate as HHG doesn't handle water well either. I've had a very easy time releasing HHG with moisture (think steaming off a neck?) But yes, water and fish glue don't get along well. I don't see it as an issue and I hope my guitars aren't used under water. (I don't buy the thought that humidity will cause it to fail)

I think in a prior discussion on FG that someone mentioned that they did a test to see if excess humidity would cause the FG to fail, and they didn't have any issues. I could be remembering incorrectly.
Do a search in the archives here.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I just got a bottle of the Lee Valley stuff from Madinter in Spain and I am planning to use it on my next guitar. Shawn can probably comment on this, but I believe it is the glue of choice in Romanillos guitar making class, as well as in lots of Spanish guitar maker's shops. David Collins, who has used if for years, just posted about it over on MIMF, and based on his experiences the humidity resistance problems seems to be mostly myth. The glue can go bad if it's old, which may or may not be the reason people have reported problems. Also according to David, you know if the glue is bad if it loses its "stringiness" and starts to smell sour.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Thanks Arnt,

That is the biggest problem with the net, if someone assumes something to be true because it "sounds right" there is nothing to stop them from publishing it. If they happen to have cred in other areas, this can lead to all sorts of confusion.

Cheers

Kim

If I see that article from the player piano guy I'm going to barf. I don't
know the guy personally, but I really wonder where he gets his
information from - probably from a book that was written by someone
who heard this from and "expert" who heard it from....... - Has he ever
actually used the stuff???

I don't know. It's about the only wood glue I use anymore. I have
instruments that have been very mistreated and have held up fine with
high humidity. If you kept it near 100% humidity continuously for months
then chances are good that joints under stress will fail. The thing is that
in spite of the what the player piano fellow says, so will hide glue. All the
guitars I see pulled from michigan basements have proved that to me. If
you store your guitar near 100% humidity it's going to swell like a baloon
so much that things will be popping left and right no matter what you
use.

I'm sorry to rant, and I mean no offense to anyone. It's just that every
time I hear these same criticisms, I always end up tracking them back to
this one single reference to the glue by a typical radical hide glue fanatic
(no offense intended to the radical hide glue fanatics here on the forum),
who also has his own "special formula" hide glue that he sells at the
bottom of the page.

I'm not going to try to convert people from hide glue, and if you're fluent
and comfortable with it there's no reason to. Hide glue can be much more
convenient for it's quick dry and short clamping time. Hide glue probably
is a little more moisture resistant than fish glue, but that's only my
speculation. My actual experience has not shown any evidence of this,
and if there is a difference I can't see it being much. I still haven't found
time to do the controlled experiments I've been planning to do for ages.

"That is the biggest problem with the net, if someone assumes
something to be true because it "sounds right" there is nothing to stop
them from publishing it. If they happen to have cred in other areas, this
can lead to all sorts of confusion. "

Well put Kim. I suppose I could have just said that instead of ranting on
about it.

I suppose I don't see it as a HHG vs. fish glue argument. They just two
slightly different glues amoung a world of adhesives, and like all
adhesives will have thier strengths and weaknesses. Pick the glue right
for the job. Fish glue is certainly more friendly to things like crack repairs
or other joints that takes time to assemble or work glue in to. On the
other hand it would be foolish to chose fish glue over hide glue for a
factory setting because of it's cure time. If you want to keep production
moving and don't need a terribly long open time than hide glue is
certainly the better choice. David Collins39062.8556597222

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Well said guys.

I'm an avid believer in HHG. I use if for everything that I'm quick enough. On my last project, I tried Fish Glue to glue on the top and back to the rims and I loved it! Over 1 hour open time! It does dry hard as glass too.

It says right on the bottle 'glue line is susceptible to water'... 'Water' not 'humidity'. I try to keep that in consideration when I bring my guitars SCUBA diving...

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

I am anxious to try the fish glue, David! I could be converted.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Come by my shop sometime Hesh. I just packed up some for JJ, and even
after splitting the last bucket with a harpsichod / piano builder friend of
mine I still have some left I can spare.David Collins39062.8834606481

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I'm a keen user of hide glue, and have never used Fish glue though I know a lot of very good luthiers who do, including my favourite classical builder. The reason I've never used fish glue? I haven't found a supplier in the UK! But it seems from Arnt that one of my regular suppliers of wood, Madinter in Spain, does now carry it, so that's going to be added to my next order. For jobs like gluing on the top and back plates it would seem ideal. Though I still want to try setting fire to the back after using hide glue to soften it before clamping.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=Colin S]Snipe
Though I still want to try setting fire to the back after using hide glue to soften it before clamping.

Colin[/QUOTE]
??? Care to elaborate?

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Aoibeann

[QUOTE=Aoibeann] [QUOTE=Colin S]Snipe
Though I still want to try setting fire to the back after using hide glue to soften it before clamping.

Colin[/QUOTE]
??? Care to elaborate?[/QUOTE]

Lillian, it's an old Spanish method we've discussed here before, whereby you fit the back braces to the sides then apply hide glue to the braces and rims, fit the back and then wipe alcohol over the part of the back over the rims and braces. Set fire to the alcohol, the heat softens the glue through the back, clamp up and your done!

I'm just plucking up the courage to try it. The photos would be spectacular!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

This is very interesting. I think I will give Fish glue a try.

Is this the kind of stuff you guys are talking about?

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20019&cat=1,11 0,42965&ap=1

How long a shelf life does this stuff have before it goes bad?

Here is a link to the mfg's website with a thorough explanation of the product. It is basically the same protein as HHG with many of the same properties except for the temperature requirements. It can be used at ambient.

https://www.norlandprod.com/techrpts/fishgelrpt.html

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Peter

I got my fish glue from Kremer Pigments - but I am planning to try the Lee Valley stuff.

I haven't had a batch go bad. I use it wherever I can, and especially for things like bracing the top and gluing the bridge. Its great for making rosette logs as you don't have to clean up any ooze out - just add more glue and press the next pieces together.

I still use HHG for the V-joint, as it seems to leave less of a line and the fish glue seems a bit thick for it.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Is there different strength fish glues? Does anyone know if it cleans up like HHG,which is handy to a sloppy person like me. Clinton

As far as I know you cannot buy it in different strengths. Water will clean it up pretty easily.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

[QUOTE=jfrench] I got my fish glue from Kremer Pigments - but I am planning to try the Lee Valley stuff. <Snip>

I still use HHG for the V-joint, as it seems to leave less of a line and the fish glue seems a bit thick for it.[/QUOTE]

Buy it! Joshua I thought you just boiled up a batch of fish skins. You'll be telling me next that you buy your shellac rather than harvest the resin from the Laccifer lacca beetles in the forest yourself. Do you know, someone started a rumour that you had a power buffer, but I knew it couldn't be true.

Please leave me with some of my dreams.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I've never bought the glue from them, but the few times I've heard of
complaints or problems they were with glue bought from Lee Valley. It's
purely speculation, but if Lee Valley buys in quantities larger than they
could quickly resell, and if they don't keep thier stock refrigerated it's
possible that glue sold later in a batch could be past it's prime.

I buy a gallon about once a year (one gallon doesn't meet their minimum
order, but it's only a few extra dollars to tell them to just charge the
minimum) directly from Norland. If it's refrigerated it should last well over
a year, but I've noticed it does become a little less stringy if left that long
at room temperature. It's also completely freeze/thaw stable, so I'm sure
you could extend the life by keeping your extra stock frozen. For about
thirty dollars a year it has been worth my peace of mind to buy direct
from the manufacturer and know that it's fresh.

And Clinton, no it's not sold in different gram strengths. I did order a
gallon of their Hi-Pure Liquid Gelatin with my last order to experiment
with. I know I keep promising this, but I want to use it in a pretty massive
testing experiment with a wide range of glues and adhesives. I wanted to
try some different tackifiers with the pure gelatin, along with mixes with
hide glues, rabbit skin glue and so on. I got a bunch of stuff like
aluminum sulfate, ferrous sulfate and polyvinyl alchohol to try some ideas
with too. Norland does make a higher molecular weight gelatin, but it's
sold in larger quantities to food and pharmaceutical industries (I'm sure
they've pickup up a lot of business in these markets since the mad cow
situation, and embargoes on bovine products that followed).David Collins39063.5463194444

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

David...So, you buy this already premixed...not granules like HHG?

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=Graham Steward]
How long a shelf life does this stuff have before it goes bad?
[/QUOTE]

It says shelf life 2 years.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin