Official Luthiers Forum!

There's an article in Acoustic Guitar about the
differences in using denser material for bridge
pins..other than the usual plastic. (claiming better
sound transferance)...ie bone,wood.or even brass.Is
it really worth considering using lets say ...brass
bridge pins instead of plastic?
Is there any worthwhile difference?
Your thoughts gentlemen please.

The higher the density, the less energy is lost. It really that simple. Now how much can the trained ear hear? that is relative to the listener

When I used to teach guitar at night school I always got the students to ditch their plastic pins and put in bone, and it amazed them what a difference it made to the sound. I never use anything else.

In the UK Raj, Northworthy fit brass pins as standard, and I know that Martin Carthy uses them on the top three strings. I believe that Martin fit them on the same strings on their Martin Carthy model. I keep meaning to buy a set of brass and try them.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I use TUSQ pins exclusively now. They are a very hard ceramic material that is molded into shapes such as BP's, nuts and saddles. So far, I've only tried the pins and like them over any material I ever tried.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

as mentioned by the posters above, many materials have an advantage over plastic. my favourite is bone for tone, appearance and durability. fossil ivory is also excellent, but quite pricy. ebony is also quite good, but not as good as bone to my ear.

i use bone as standard and fossol ivory an upgrade in my builds. for repairs bone, fi and ebony are options. the only plastic pins you would find in my shop would be in the rubish bin.

brass pins go a bit to far for my taste, having a very metalic, rather harsh tone.

i've not tried the tusc pins also referred to.

Hi Colin,
thanks for the input.I did notice that Northworthy used
brass pins,but there is so much conflicting advice
about material it's hard to know what to go
for,especially as some of the pins are quite
expensive...from the replies so far it looks like
Tusq,bone,and brass are top candidates.

Raj, I'd always go for bone. I even put a bone plate on my bridge plate, so the string is in contact with the same material at all the main pressure points. Probably no logic there but it keeps me happy and I like the sound. But I want to try some brass some time.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Keep in mine theree are also bones differ in density. Not t make this too complicated. I've work with everything from buffallo to Giraffe and they differ. Depending on how they are treated as well. Ususally the unbleached "vintage" bone just retained oils. The bleach is what leeches the oils out and whitens it as well. I feel the unbleached has a little more warmer tone than the bleached, which can be harder and drier. I've also found Giraffe leg bone to be the densest I've used.

I have some very nice black water buffalo horn pins on my first and I really like those. I inlaid a little 2mm pearl dot in them.

I seem to remember reading that they were second only to FWI in density. Does anyone know for sure?

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

They are dense. I believe I have read the same but like was said earlier each piece of bone is different. My favorite is FWI but at $150 as set I don't use them much.

I'm going to jump in with an opposing viewpoint.

Better transmission of _what_ vibration? If the string is moving behind the saddle, IMO, you've got problems. If it's not, then the pin material can't be altering it.

So far as I can see, the only effect different bridge pin materials ought to have is through their density, which changes the mass of the bridge.

I will say that, with my ears, it's possible that you guys are hearing something that I'm not. OTOH, I'm also reminded of Feynamn's dictum, that "The easiest person for you to fool is yourself". I'd love to see some real measurements of these subtle changes.

Nice one Alan..never looked at it that way before..I
like the quote too.There seem to be a lot of material
and design choices that can cause "subtle
changes" when constructing guitars...has anyone
ever tried quantifying these changes?
One other thing if you are saying that the denser
bridge pins only affect the mass of the bridge,then
surely by the same logic the choice of bridge saddle
material would do the same..are you saying that
plastic/bone/tusq/brass would have no dicernable
difference to the tone/energy transferance?

Alan-
Aaah...a voice of reason! It's like a breath of fresh air to clear out all this smoke. Now if I could just get past the mirrors...

THANKS!
John

I have heard noticeable changes in sound when changing pin material, not always good. The few Guitars I have worked on with Brass pins and even Brass saddle and nut it was most noticeable on. When I swapped out the brass pins nut and saddle the tone of the guitar warmed up a lot. before it had a twangy harsh sound. I won't argue with greater minds why it changes but I will argue there is a change. The biggest change is going from Plastic to Bone or something else, Agin I won't argue why the change but there is a change. I had a musician on tour recently and his Morgan guitar had one plastic pin and the rest bone (he had lost a pin and only could find plastic. That string was dead sounding and he had tried moving the pin around to different strings and whatever string it was on sounded dead compared to the rest. We put a bone pin in and it just came to life. On the other hand I have never heard a guitar with Brass that I liked. They were louder but harsher to my ear.

I agree with Richard, I've heard the very dramatic change when changing pins from plastic to bone or ebony on at least 50 guitars. It makes a very, very noticable difference, almost like changing from 2 year old strings to new ones. It's not smoke and mirrors but a real effect.

It's a real change and cannot just be attributed to a change in mass.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=Colin S]
It's a real change and cannot just be attributed to a change in mass.

Colin[/QUOTE]

How do you know this unless you bolt a block of brass or similar weight to the bridge when you switch to a lighter pin?

It would be interesting to check this with a blind test (pins swapped (or not) by experimenter- bridge covered with masking tape or similar).

I don't have any problem believing that there is an audible change when the pin mass changes. I do wonder a bit when claims are made that one kind (more expensive, older, rarer) of bone sounds better than the cheaper variety- assuming there is no mass change. I'm with Alan on this- there is no 'vibration' to be transferred between the string end and the pin.
John

[QUOTE=JohnAbercrombie] [QUOTE=Colin S]
It's a real change and cannot just be attributed to a change in mass.

Colin[/QUOTE]

How do you know this unless you bolt a block of brass or similar weight to the bridge when you switch to a lighter pin?

It would be interesting to check this with a blind test (pins swapped (or not) by experimenter- bridge covered with masking tape or similar).

I don't have any problem believing that there is an audible change when the pin mass changes. I do wonder a bit when claims are made that one kind (more expensive, older, rarer) of bone sounds better than the cheaper variety- assuming there is no mass change. I'm with Alan on this- there is no 'vibration' to be transferred between the string end and the pin.
John


[/QUOTE]

John, just go and try it. I know it's not a mass change as the effect is present when all the plastic pins have been taken out and only one bone pin put in, so the total mass of the bridge is in fact reduced in that case. Can you hear the difference in tone of a 25gm bridge and a 26gm bridge? That would be a bigger change than switching from plastic to bone.

50+ guitars is a statistically significant sample (I've spent my entire working life as an experimental scientist). And, as Mario wisely says, it's all in the detail.

But, I know you'll never take anyone else's word for it so I won't bother trying to convince you.


ColinColin S39068.1759259259

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

How about damping qualities of the material ???? You cant tell me that two bridges that weigh the same, made of different materials, such as ebony vs braz, would sound the same ?? So, if you had a bridge with brass pins in it, weighed them, then changed the pins to ebony or bone and added the mass delta to the bridge with similar bridge material, the guitar should sound the same ??? I dont have a scale (or brass pins) to try this, but would be interested to hear the results ..anyone ???

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Absolutely not Tony. In a thread some time ago I detailed some tests we did at the univerity where I work to test the damping qualities of different woods by passing signals through different samples and measuring the amplitude of the output. We used my equipment which is more usually used for testing the transmission speed and damping of rock materials.   We tried similar mass samples and similar dimensional samples. The results were consistent as to species not density or mass.

Of the woods we tested, suffice it to say that my favourite bridge material, BRW, came out best for signal transmission with Mad rose a very close second, Macassar and EIRW did well, but Gaboon Ebony came consistently bottom, damping both P and S waves very effectively. We tested a variety of each wood from different sources. We did try it with a piece of solid Giraffe bone, and I wish I could make a bridge out of it!

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

All this talk about the different variables which may
(or may not ) affect tone / vibrational energy /
transferance.got me thinking about why would some
people opt for a pinless bridge system... and others
for bridge pins.....is one method superior..has
anyone compared the two...and what about classical
builders..they have a lot less energy from the
string..why don't they opt for ballend strings and
bridge pins if it's such a cool idea??? Can anyone
enlighten me ..

I admit that I wasn't thinking about this question in a very sophisticated way.
Perhaps we should be directing our attention to the role of the bridge pins in stiffening the bridge by wedging in the holes, thus helping to 'connect' the bridge together?
This could affect the ability of the 'distal end' (away from strings) of the bridge to move and excite the top.

The whole 'pinless bridge' issue is an interesting one- with examples of reputedly great-sounding and also not-so-great sounding (Ovation seems to be a favourite target) guitars with pinless bridges.

BTW, I've never kept a guitar with plastic pins around the place. I generally ascribed the improved sound to the fact that I put on new strings when I swapped the pins for 'better' ones. Sounds like I was overlooking a bunch of things!

John

Colin:

If you're convinced that there's a difference, maybe you should see if you can measure it? I certainly can't hear one, but my ears are really bad, so I'm relying on my best understanding of how the thing works. I'm always willing to learn, but surely you can forgive a skeptical attitute when it comes to pin substitution.

Now a brass _saddle_, on the other hand, could be significantly different. The impedance of brass, particularly at high frequencies, has got to be different from that of bone, and certainly much different from plastic.

And I agree with your ranking of bridge woods, in general. It's actually fairly easy to measure what are likely to be the most important properties of wood samples, and the effort is well repaid.

Yes a brass Saddle and nut make a big difference in sound. I have worked on a number of guitars with Brass saddle and nut and when I switched them out for bone the sound improved greatly, warmed the sound up a lot. Brass pins being switched out for bone warmed it up but not as much. I will bow out to your great experience and knowledge on this allen as I can't, and don't try to explain why bone seems to improve the sound over plastic but to my ear it seems to and when there is the possibility of improvement in sound with such a simple change, I'll go for it. What sold me was the guitar with only one plastic pin which made the string sound dead. Small change but every bit helps.