Official Luthiers Forum!

I've often wondered why i don't see bowl back guitars
built in a similar fashion to classical mandolins or
ouds...I have seen some vault backs out there but
they cost many thousands,...and what is the benefit
of this?? It seems quite easy to buy a classical
mandolin with this type of construction for not a lot of
money.,,,so why not a guitar.
How would having a wooden 'bowled back' affect the
tone?..why aren't they built?..they look so pretty and
must have some kind of beneficial design purpose.
Your thoughts please gentlemen.

They do make them - they're called Ovations.

Seriously though, you see so many neopolitan (aka. tater-bug) mandolins
for low prices for two reasons. They were pumped out of Chicago
factories from the 1890's through the 1910's in massive quantity to be
sold in department stores, catalogues and door-to-door salesman
along with zither instruments. Second is that they really aren't that
desireable to todays mandolinists in terms of tone and volume.
I had two seperate Lyon and Healy's (one mandolin and one mandola)
come in to the shop just this week. One of the two actually sounds
surprisingly nice with some Thomastik Jazz strings on it, but they are
usually sentimental value wall hangers. The sound of the mandolin as we
know it today changed a great deal through the 10's and 20's, and one of
the old tater-bugs would have a very hard time keeping up with a
resonator banjo and D-28. There are very few people who would
intentionally seek out the sound of the bowl back neopolitans.

I would guess guitars are not seen this way for two main reasons -
comfort and tone. It would seem difficult to determine the shape of the
bowl to build given the size of the guitar as well as it's outline of waist
and shoulders. This is why the vaulted back is more practicle on guitars,
because it still allows for bent sides with an arched back to be set on
them. And I think the reason that even these didn't stay would most likely
be volume and tone. Increasing the volume of stringed instrument has
been a steady goal for builders for hundreds of years. All the ribs and
staves on baroque guitar backs are primarily ornamental, and this can
really come at the cost of volume.

The back of an instrument is not just an inert shell to reflect sound
forward, but a very active part of the whole box. It moves, absorbing
some vibrations, reflecting others, stiffening the sides and top depending
on how it moves, etc. The way a back flexes with the body plays an huge
roll in determining the tone and volume of the instrument, and the
vaulted and bowl backs tend to be much stiffer. David Collins39083.6566435185

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

David,

I think Raj is having a bit of a tease with us here. Both Raj and I have played a fabulous guitar make by English Luthier David Anthony Reid that is made with a vaulted back that lacks absolutely nothing in the departments of tone or volume. It's a fabulous guitar in all respects made by a master craftsman - check it out here. In fact it was so good that Raj came mighty close to buying it.

Raj - I suspect that vault back guitars are not more widely made because not many have the skill or patience of someone like David Reid, and in the face of a good supply of 2-piece back sets and a predominantly "conservative" guitar buying public the path of least resistance is the one chosen.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

It's also labor intensive, which would add to the cost. Abe Wechter built a modified vaulted back guitar for John McLaughlen, and it took him the better part of a year to complete. Obviously, though, there were other considerations that added to the time frame:

http://www.wechterguitars.com/custom/gallery24.htm

Okay, neither of those were quite what I had in mind when I think of a
vaulted back. The first images that came to my mind were more of an
ornate earlier baroque period style of curved staves and a often a greater
arch. That style reminds me more of modern guitarrons or perhaps some
later styles of vihuela. My books are over at the shop, but there are some
similar instruments here.
This style of build generally predates the modern single course guitar,
and is more often found on ten string guitars (five double courses) or
eleven string (five double with a single high string) gut strung guitars.

I would certainly be interested in hearing those instruments, and with
that style I would agree with you reasons as to why they are not widely
made. Practicality and lack of significant market demand are all the
reasons a manufacturer needs to not venture in to a different market.



David Collins39083.7130208333

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Wow! What an interesting site--thanks, David. Beautiful instruments. Even their lute measuring device is attractive!

Now I've been thinking about doing this for quite some time, a sort of natural extension of my lute shells, and certainly much easier to construct than lute shells. They could be built up on a form in precicely the same way. All you'd need to know is the angle of intersection of each element of the back, though that can be arrived at by trial and error. I personally don't like the small cleats that are sometimes used to reinforce the joint on the inside, but do like the fact that the structural strength of the back is from it's shape rather than the additional braces that we traditionally use. I would reinforce the joint with silk tape as I do with the lute shell. The more segments used then the easier construction becomes.

Look at a lute shell, they are just the same, the lute is just more exagerated.




As to volume, I've never seen more and greater volume as the holy grail. I think that often this is at the cost of tone. If you listen or, like me, play some of the 19th century or earlier guitars they have a sweetness of tone that is lacking in the offerings we have today from our pursuit of volume. What the bowl backs do however is focus the sound, and the stiffness allows the top to operate. Volume from lutes often surprises guitar players, although the opening of the rose is only a small proportion of that on a guitar soundhole, both volume and projection are far higher than most people imagine.

Thanks Raj, you've got me thinking.

Colin

By the way, and I know it's heresy to say it here, but if you play some of the higher-end Ovations, they actually sound pretty good.
Colin S39084.2412731481

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Hi Colin,
now that picture of the back of the lute...imagine that
on a guitar...I think it would be staggeringly beautiful
surely worth a go just to see what it soundede like..I
just cannot beleive that it would sound
bad..especially if the builder (like yourself) is well
veresed in lute as well as guitar building...would I
buy one...if I could afford it AB---SO...LUTE (no
pun)-LY
some one build one PLEASE!!!!

There are actually quite a few instances of guitars built with vaulted backs...

The modern Spanish Classical guitar evolved from the Vihuela de Mano which had a vaulted back which persisted in baroque guitars until about 1760-1800.

In the end of the 19th to the early 20th century the naturalist movement in Germany helped to revive interest in the lute so the "guitar lute" was a guitar that was made to look like a lute with a bowl back but only six single strings. The headstocks on many of these were made to look like violin family pegheads and other effectations.

Even today there is the movement among Classical guitar builders influenced by Smallman to build classical guitars with carved backs much like that of an archtop guitar. I have seen some that have had the vaulted backs such as the David Reid example referenced above.

Some Modern Portuguese guitars are still made with vaulted backs, having evolved from the "english guitar".

Among other string instruments the chirango is built with a bowl back that is usually carved from a single piece that forms the neck and bowled back. The Tiple from the Canary islands is a 5 string that looks like a ukelele but is indigenious to the Canary islands and is always made with a bowl back even though the shape of the instrument looks like a bambina guitar.

As far as the mandolin is concerned, the shift in mandolin construction from a bowl back to what toady is most prevalent in "A" or "F" style mandolins has more to do with the music changing which forced a change in construction than anything else. For the music that was played on it, the neopolitan mandolin is appropriate and proportional to the music.

The same can be said when comparing the lute and classical guitar...they are two different animals that evolved in response to the music played on them. While there historically is no such thing as a "flamenco" guitar, it was the virtuosity of players like Richardo Nino, Sabicas, Paco de Lucia and others that lead to builders changing the proportions, bracing and other elements to adapt the instrument to the players.

i stumbled across this one while e-baying...a good looking one eh?

forgot to mention its a YAIRI.

WOW WOW WOW WOW, ever nice! Thanks Udi and Happy New Year!

Great thread Raj and everyone!

That Yairi is georgeous.
I love the idea of using a piece of suede on the back
to prevent the guitar from slipping away from the
player...Anyone got a few grand to donate to a good
cause ..(me!!!!).

Bernie Lehmann does a similar thing. I got to play this at Newport...it was really cool. Lehmann Guitars Model 2000

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Joe Breault
Merrimack, NH
Perpetual novice

That Lehmann is a seriously lovely guitar...but it's
also about 10 grand ..I'm sure it's worth it though.
A bit out of reach of the likes of me ..drop dead
gorgeous though... especially the ebony backed
model!