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I just wanted to see this up on the forum again as it already archived. This top is very interesting for several reasons.

1. The lower tonebars are single-peaked. I'll swear they had scallops on there the first time I looked. So that really is a serious but cool-looking mod.

2. The lower part of the main X-brace is not inlaid into the sides, they are tapered away like a tonebar or finger brace. I take mine all the way through and perch it on the sides and linings. I know others do this too. Anyone had a main x pop loose due to this?

3. It has a double transverse brace under the fingerboard area. I do this too, primarily because I was following Hoffman and he does this. Plus, the Martin kit blueprint also shows two. It's an old design and prior to adjustable truss rods. Not a problem for me because I use a head adjusting rod.

4. The bridge plate is large on this bracing scheme. My guess is it's an attempt to eliminate belly bulge? I think this might dampen a top somewhat, just the weight alone. Then it could also dampen it structurally, gee this has got to be really really strong.

5. The last thing is, similar to Olson, the upper tonebar dies into the bridgeplate. It just about has to, I guess you could run it onto the maple plate? That would make replacement difficult.

Overall, a very interesting bracing scheme Rod. Always neat to see another builder's work.

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Wow, feeling a little bit naked right now

Of course I'm open to comments both negative and positive if you've got them.

I really can't give any reasoning for bracing the way I do other than this is how one of my own personal guitar builder idol's does it.

I've always liked the sound of Olson guitars and have spent a little bit of time talking with Jim about how he does things.

Mine is a little different than Jim's in that I didn't scallop the tone bars, but this helped open up the top when tapping it, so I went with it. This top sure had the best sound when tapping versus the other's that I've done this way (this will be the 4th to date). The other difference with this top versus the other's I've done and what Jim does is that I'm not letting the lower X-brace arms into the linings (This is something that I got from Paul Woolson, so it's his fault )

I wish I could give more reasoning to you, but I can't. I will continue to brace this way till of course like most builders, find something that works better for me. I am also very very interested in learning for Ervin's weekly tutorial here on the OLF regarding voicing the top. Sure wish I could give up some time to take the week long class, but the day job, mortgage, young kids etc... just won't happen. Please stay with us for a very very long time Ervin, I want to take your class sometime in the next 10-15 years

I guess everyone draws a line in the sand and this so far is what I've done for that line.

Here is a picture of the bracing on guitar #4 it's a cutaway so the upper transverse brace is cut short to get into the side.

After this picture was taken, I shaved more off the tone bars, almost to the same shape as the first picture Bruce posted.



Can I get my cloths back on now Rod True39086.6943287037

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Thanks Rod for the second picture. Did you taper the main x'es on this or let them in? So Woolson likes his tapered. Well, if Woolson does it, then that may be a CFox innovation? Maybe he'll chime in.

I was thinking along the lines of what overall effects each of these mods have on a guitar top? Plus, your top is interesting. Mine are boring basically.

On the ones I've done with cutaway, I've angled that second transverse brace to miss the linings. That's a little tricky, but it works. I like having it in there.
Maybe we should open this thread up to: Show US your Top BRACES....?

I'll go see if I have a pic, myself.

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WOW Great thread Bruce, i hope you're all ready for Bear without fur?

I learned a lot from Rod, Hesh, Paul and others but my last revelation was Colin Symonds' way of shaving down my braces, i went with parabolas to copy on Hesh and with Colin's help, oh my, what a difference in opening up it made! This is guitar no 3 for my Godfather Norman.

Here are 2 pics, the back and the top prior to receiving Colin's instructions





And after





the box is closed now and is feather light and taps so live that i just can't wait to have them strings on!

Serge

Serge Poirier39086.7618171296

Here is the second last one I completed ... went for wider than normal fingers as the this was redwood, probably no heavier than anyone elses pointy thin ones. This one was full and even once done, and had sustain for days (went on a 15.5 lower bout EI rw design of mine) Bridge was braz rw.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I figure someone will ask .. so here is the finished product (I wish I had taken these with the new camera, oh well) ... redwood armrest, green ab rosette, maple green maple purf, ei rw bindings. I forgot to mention in the upper post that the two bass side braces end as they do as they are tucked into the armrest piece.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Wow Tony, that's gorgeous!

This is mine, but before being cleaned up. My X brace joint isn't as tight
as I had hoped, but I filled it with hide glue. I'm still going to add the cap.

Tony - ....Oh My!
What a magnificent creation!
Id love to hear a soundclip of that sweetie!
Cheers
Charlie
GREAT THREAD BTW!!

Very interesting pics and info, guys. Thanks!
Tony: Just beautiful work! Is that a spruce cap glued on one of the braces over the X intersection? Are the transverse braces in the lower bout symmetrically shaped in a non-armrest guitar? And last, is that a pickup cable or some carbon fiber thingy that I can see through the soundhole?
John

I recently posted these pics of my 12 string build bracing , but for those who missed it;








Craig LawrenceKiwiCraig39086.8780439815

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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Hey John,

Yep, spruce cap always .. see the Ervin videos, its highly recommended .. thats what makes the brace whole again once the lap joint is cut. Judy Threet supposedly did some tests and she says that it can be as thin a 1/64th .. I dont know about going that low, but I will certainly be trimming mine down to about 1/16 max.

Yes, I make the braces symmetrical if its a non armrest, these are still the same height at the centre, as if it where a std guitar, but then I shave down to meet the rest block. I may in future be shaving to nothing in the lower bout, untucked ala Mario/Woolson.

What you see thru the soundhole is the mic of a K&K trinity system.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Good thread Bruce!

As always Rod very nice clean looking work from you.

I have one question though if I may please?

Why do you guys make all those pointy things on your braces....... [/QUOTE]

Yeah I was wondering the same thing

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Thank You and Best To All

Here's an oddity on my 1st guitar built about 12-13 years ago. Naturally I still have this guitar and it's really great sound wise. I often wonder why I haven't pursued this style more. Every one how hears it really like it. I might come back to play with more some day.
The X is nomex honeycomb wit carbon fiber skins. It was a lot of work.


This is more typical of my tops today.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

I dunno why you fellas use all the extra bracing thingies around the "X" brace....here's how I do mine

This is my usual type of bracing, I gave up on pointy bits a long time ago. They do have their place, just not on the type of guitar that I like. X brace is 15mm.




This is the bracing I use on my Heiber style lutes.



ColinColin S39087.2347569444

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Hesh,
    I saw your question concerning those points on bracing and just
wanted to throw in a small comment concerning them.

   They are not just left high in random spots along the brace lengths but
those points are....or at least they should be....placed carefully along the
brace paths according to their effects on the tne and response of the
guitar being braced.

   These points are not so much left in place to provide strength..even
though the height does do so, but they are allowed to stand higher to
allow the additional mass of those spots to provide damping effects.

    It's obvious that damping in one area redirects vibration and creates
activation of other parts of the bracing sysyem and top plate. Our goal
should be to distribute the vibration created by the strings to every part
of the top by using both bracing mass and placement.

    These points, both in height andlocation, should be one of the more
commonly varied and altered details of our top bracing...especially in our
earlier instruments where we're doing our research and development and
shaping our signature tones.

    Alot of buildres will disagree and even insist that the variations in
brace mass along their paths have little to no effect on tone and
response, but all of the vintage guitars from all of the deeply established
builders exhibit its use and the voicing of tops has more recently been
dismissed as unimportant, but it has real value.

    I believe it's really the only way to effectively and accurately predict and
determine the tonal and response contributions of a top to the overall
performance of a guitar. Just my opinion there, though.

Just wanted to throw that out for you.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Braces are structural members of a guitar top.

I'm aware of many engineering ideas which are proven. We use these ideas a lot of times without so much as a thought to all the math and engineering behind it.

Take a scalloped tone bar for example. Does it's shape suggest a suspension bridge shape? It does to me. While not sure of the engineering comparison, the shapes are similar.

Then check out these cool parabola shaped braces. I think they too remind me of a simple bridge shape. The arch is strong and causes the load to be distributed to adjacent areas along it's length. Anyone ever seen one of these lightweight aluminum tractor/trailer flatbed's and notice the tremendous arch built in while they are without their load? Amazing how curved they are.

Rod's Bracing, while similar in many respects to the typical Martin X-braced guitar just had many points to ponder. Rod was hearing something he liked after removing half the scallop from his tone bars. That experimentation is interesting and I think, commendable.

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[QUOTE=Kevin Gallagher] Hesh,
These points are not so much left in place to provide strength..even
though the height does do so, but they are allowed to stand higher to
allow the additional mass of those spots to provide damping effects.
[/QUOTE]

Kevin,

You are a builder that I admire greatly given your length of time building, awesome reputation of the guitars you make, humility and willingness to share your passion and knowledge with others. But I must admit, I did have a sly chuckle when I read this. When I voice my tops, dampening the top is the very thing I seem to be trying to avoid. But then I thought about it - tapered/parabolic bracing have their own peaks too and everything is relative. Voicing means shaping the sound and different parts of the top will respond differently to produce the sound the builder is after.

As an aside, do you happen to know when the first recorded use of scalloped bracing on a guitar is? Does the technique predate the 1900's, early 20th century or is it more recent? And do you know "why" its was introduced? - which instrument type and what sound was being sought? I'd be interested to know. Dave White39087.5802430556

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I remember reading in a Wood and Steel a couple (more ??) years back where Bob and some well known makers were re-evaluating the bracing on some of his guitars (after 20 years ro more of pretty mucht he same thing), the one I remeber seeing in the pictures was a Dread - the X remained scalloped, but after lots of experimentation he discovered that the best sounding, to his ears, was a guitar with parabolic tone bars, not scalloped.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Kevin,
I watched all the Somogyi videos last night and was amazed at how much sense it all made to me. I'm reading what you're saying and having flashbacks to the video last night. I think you're dead on with what you are saying and that there is no right or wrong way (except catastrophic failure)to brace but certain techniques and styles produce different results...you just have to find what fits your style and stay with it and occasionally tweak it for the box size and shape.

That's interesting Tony, a bunch of us some years ago did a fair bit of experimentation with brace profiles, scalloped, parabolic and various hybrid systems. We didn't much like the scalloped X / parabolic tones, but did like the opposite of parabolic X and scallped tones! I put this thread up a couple of years ago.

Brace prolfiles

I've refined it a bit since then and mainly just use the parabolics now as they suit my playing style.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.