Official Luthiers Forum!

I would never consider buying anything without advise from the pros (you!). I was just wondering what might be up with these e-bay sales. ANy thoughts?

http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAZILIAN-ROSEWOOD-BACKS-SIDES-LUTHIER-G UITAR-SET-188_W0QQitemZ130065114812QQihZ003QQcategoryZ47067Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Mike

Do a search in the archives. This guy has been discussed at great lengths in the past.

John

It is a controversial topic and alot of strong opinions...here is a quick summary and you can draw your own conclusions.

Legally no Brazilian Rosewood, regardless of whether it is pre-ban or not can not be sold and shipped internationally without a CITES certificate that has been granted based on paper proof that the source was pre-ban. Any vendor that states that they have another form of document or that can not supply a CITES certificate should not be selling internationally.

Having said that, CITES is an international treaty and local regulations vary country by country but in general CITES is concerned with international sales across borders. Because BRW was imported and sold for a few hundred years and was only restricted in 1992, there are still lots of caches of old stock around that is keeping guitar builders supplied, albeit at increasingly high prices.

The issue that is controversial is that there is still harvesting going on in Brazil and the chance that a dealer in Brazil has gone to the effort of getting CITES permits is extremely slim (to none). I have bought BRW sets from internal sellers on eBay that came with the proper CITES permits but in general that is almost never the case.

My personal belief is that old growth stock that exists and is found in an attic or wood pile should be able to be sold without restriction within the country someone is in, but eventually those sources will dry up, regardless of price.

Not only is there the ethical issue of dealing with unknown sources with questionable supply, there is also the chance that the wood you will recieve may not even BRW...there are other species that look very similar when seen in a poorly photographed auction listing. Several of the items I have seen listed (and I am not specifically talking about the particular source mentioned above) that to my eye and most likely not BRW.

To be completely open about it, I build classical guitars and build with BRW for my best guitars. If I am building a guitar for a player that is outside of the US or a player that tours internationally, I only use sets with CITES permits and include those with the guitar as it eliminates the risk of problems getting through customs. If the guitar is for a player in the US, then I use a set that is old growth and I know is pre-ban but will not come with a CITES permit and will not be sold with it.

I know that when the sets I have with CITES permits are gone, that I will at some point abandon BRW as a wood choice.

If you are looking for a better source for BRW than eBay and realize that it will cost more but be more reputable, I would check with some of the OLF vendors who have pre-ban old growth stock such as Allied and others.

All of this is just my opinion but for me the difference in cost in small and the peace of mind is worth the price gap.

There is nothing pre-ban about that stuff. Regardless of when it was
harvested, the CITES ban applies to exporting without certification.
The seller in question will not have any paperwork to go with the wood,
and I have serious doubt that it was even harvested pre-ban.

Don't bid on it. It's illegal and unethical (not to mention that set being
pretty darn ugly), and I wouldn't feel the least bit sorry for the buyer if it
were confiscated in shipping, although I recognize the chances of that are
very small. And does it strike you as odd at all that the user IDs are kept
private?

As John said, this has come up before and been discissed quite a bit so I
would check out the forum archives.
David Collins39089.4592824074

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Thanks all! Great advice. I have to admit I did not know this would be a sensitive subject. I was actually searching for something else when I came across that item(s).   It struck me as odd (and perhaps either unethical or scamish)...so I thought I would ask. As for supporting the sponsors, I am all about doing that. Just bought a 000 kit from BluesCreek.

You guys are great and thanks for the info.

Mike

To clarify one thing
I see that couple people say that this guy has been discussed at great length in the past on the forum - If you are refering to Jeff at Braziltonewoods, this is NOT him! and it would be unethical to suggest that it is him just because this person is A) from Brazil, and B) selling BRW.
Perhaps I didnt find the link to the proper threads discussing "this guy", baskwoods, and I apologize if I was unable to find him.
But I happen to know that its not Jeff. I wouldnt want people to find the thread/s where Jeff and his business are discussed and think that this is him, this guy baskwoods seems to have a neverending supply of "preban" BRW and is selling 30 sets at any given time from what I have seen, whereas Jeff has a couple/few select sets for sale at any given time.
Jeff doesnt sell on ebay.
Cheers
Charlie

A friend of mine bought some wood from this guy a few months ago.
Some of it was Brazilian ,the rest Palisander.
The wood from the same area but without the rosey smell .
But they can be hard to tell apert.

If you find a set you like and do not want to use for someone else then go for it!

But the legal hassles are to much to get Braz. without the certificate.

Mike Collins

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Mike Collins

I've emailed this vendor a couple times asking for
Cites certification information, and they ignore my emails.
To me that speaks volumes.

From my understanding, Allied has paperwork for what they sold, as does Steve at Colonial Tonewoods.

I have some BRW I bought from someone who had some pieces in there garage for several decades, but as there is no clear way to get paperwork for it, I choose not to sell it.
Besides, I want it for myself.


If you're going to look for BRW, look for this kind of stuff:


Mmmmmmmm.......Chocolate!

Don Williams39089.7277430556

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Mike Collins]
Some of it was Brazilian ,the rest Palisander.
The wood from the same area but without the rosey smell .
But they can be hard to tell apert.
[/QUOTE]

Mike, I'm confused. Over here "palisander" (or "jakaranda") simply means rosewood, what type of wood are you referring to?

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Arnt, i think that Palissander is East indian rosewood which in French is called Palissandre indien but i might be wrong, i'll let my bud Mike clarify.

Good point to clarify, but I was referring to the Baskwoods dealer in the E-bay link provided by the original poster. Baskwoods has come up at least a half dozen times with the same question every time.

Indeed Palisander means "Rosewood"
But there is a wood from Brazil that looks like Brazilain
and is called "Palisander" because it just misses the smell test!
I've bought some from www.gilmerwood.com and it's beautiful BUT can NOT be Called BRAZILIAN because it's just slightly different!

How this wood got mixed into the mess of names I do not now !
BUT if you go to ther site you'll get some great pieces!!

Mc

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Mike Collins

'Palisander' is, over here anyway, a very common name for D. Baronii. Madagascan.