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I think it is time for a new movement in lutherie utilizing the concepts of wabi-sabi, a Japanese philosophy of beauty and life. It is hard to translate completely and I am certainly no expert on it, but the basic tenets are:
All things are impermanent
All things are imperfect
All things are incomplete
What does this have to do with lutherie? I see far too many luthiers concentrating on the "perfectness" of materials, finishing, and ornamentation. In my work with Hibdon Hardwood, I see some fantastic wood rejected because of some perceived flaw, like a pin knot, worm hole, mineral streak, etc. These "defects" would be looked upon as attributes in wabi-sabi as they reflect the fact that wood was once part of a living thing called a tree and subject to the same forces that shape you and me. I have heard of some builders on the west coast flirting with the idea of "less than perfection", but it certainly is not a groundswell. Face it, the world's forests are under great strain and it is almost our duty to try to maximize the potential of each piece of wood we come across. I remember reading an article by Richard Brune in American Lutherie where he showed a picture of a classical Italian violin (not sure if it was Amati, del Gesu, or ?) that had a large knot on the surface of top just in front of the bridge. No effort was made to conceal the knot, the builder deemed the piece of wood acceptable for his purposes, and the violin is still prized and extremely valuable after more than 300 years.
One part of this wabi-sabi puzzles me, however. Japanese guitar buyers have a reputation of demanding absolutely perfect materials in their guitars. You would think they would be in the forefront of "organic" guitars. I wonder where is the disconnect between a wabi-sabi infused teahouse and the demand for crazy-perfect materials in a guitar?

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Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

Interesting points....
I see the quest for ever-more-expensive fancy back/side sets as just part of the need for 'bling'....
Without outrageous jewellery (inlay) or wild woods it seems that steel-string guitars aren't 'desirable' to most folks? And the 'fit and finish' standards nowadays- driven by the CNC factories? - are much higher than they were 100-200 yrs ago, I think.

On the 'rejected for a tiny flaw' idea: If the prices were lower, the buyers might not be so 'picky' but when paying the prices I see everywhere (not just Hibdon, though you are at the higher end of the range)....you have to expect the customers to be demanding, no?

It will be interesting to hear from folks who know the guitar market from the seller's viewpoint.
Thanks for an interesting thread.
John

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] And to me one of the many things that separates a luthier from a guitar builder is the ability to select wood for it's positive tonal properties.[/QUOTE]
Actually, I think it's the ability to get positive tonal properties out of any piece of wood. Think of all those "ugly" Torres guitars.

Ok, if i see a knotty pine plank that taps nice, i'm keepin' it!

[QUOTE=TRein] <snip>One part of this wabi-sabi puzzles me, however.
Japanese guitar buyers have a reputation of demanding absolutely perfect
materials in their guitars. You would think they would be in the forefront of
"organic" guitars. I wonder where is the disconnect between a wabi-sabi
infused teahouse and the demand for crazy-perfect materials in a guitar?
<snip>[/QUOTE]

IMHO, it's because wabi-sabi is a traditional concept in Japanese culture,
and apparently is not considered relevant in the collectible guitar market.
There's a gap between lovers of the traditional arts there and lovers of pop
culture. Sort of like our collectors of rat rods vs. restored muscle cars. Or
not.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Im starting a Wasabi guitar building movement...guitars so hot you cant hold them.

I am definitely all about wabi-sabi, nothing I do in Lutherie comes close to perfection but I still love doing it.

I met an interesting fellow not long ago who builds a few guitars and also has a large collection of vintage guitars. I stopped by to visit and he had a couple of guys in his shop and he pointed me out and told them here is one of the "pretty" guitar builders.....did not know if that was a compliment or not. He has showed me a couple of his and they were unbound, looked to be pretty rough sanded, unfinished and several visible guages existed. However, they sounded really nice and the action was good. He uses what he has in hardwoods and tops and strives for sound not beauty. This was and is an interesting perspective.

Mike

Good thought, Tom. I have done a lot of woodturning, and the aesthetic there is very different from that of the contemporary guitar world. Great workmanship is of course admired (wabi-sabi is not about ignoring your sanding scratches and sloppy joints, btw). But turning, which often starts with wood in the log, requires one to pay attention to the particular piece of wood and put its individual characteristics to the best use. One has to be open to changing the design as the piece opens up. Guitars can be approached that way, but they are far more abstracted from the raw material, with a lot of formal requirements that must be met. And then they have to sound good and not fall apart. It's a big challenge for the wabi-sabi approach.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Is not the inherent beauty of any wood, including 'blling' totally in tune with the concept. Without the 'bling' woods the concept would be incomplete.

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] ... And then they have to sound good and not fall apart. It's a big challenge for the wabi-sabi approach.[/QUOTE]
I am not advocating using wood that will have structural problems or won't make great sounding guitars. It is more a paradigm shift of what we as luthiers call "good wood". George Nakashima was probably the ulitmate woodwork practitioner of wabi-sabi, but we sure can't hold guitars together with inlaid dovetail splines! If I run across a perfectly vertical grain piece of whatever, I am going to use it. But if a good piece of wood comes my way that has a worm hole or two (even if it is not BRW) a dark mineral streak, a tight pin knot, and I think it will make a good, stable guitar, I will use it. I have done so in the past and it is rewarding making something of lasting beauty of materials that were overlooked.
Pat, I think you hit it on the head. Guitars are not part of traditional Japanese culture so every effort is made to get the "best".
John, certainly Hibdon's less-than-perfect pieces will sell for less than the perfect ones. I feel fairly certain that the other suppliers would follow suit. Time and time again, I have seen really fine pieces of wood dismissed outright for some cosmetic abnomality. With a revised sense of aesthetic, my contention is these abnormalities could be turned into beauty marks, kind of like Cindy Crawford's mole.

_________________
Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

[QUOTE=TRein] .... George Nakashima was probably the ulitmate
woodwork practitioner of wabi-sabi, but we sure can't hold guitars
together with inlaid dovetail splines!...[/QUOTE]
Maybe Howard could speak to that!

I think we see some signs of wabi-sabi in guitar-building already, such as
how wild-grain BRW is sometimes used to advantage, with wood that had
been considered unsuitable 40 years ago, though that may be driven by
lack of straight-grain wood rather than aesthetics.

It's a wonderful thing to see traditional Japanese art, but at the same
time, it's sad that so few younger people are taking it up. Becoming a
master takes a lifetime for much of that work, and interest among young
people there is waning.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Tom, I think the whole concept of Wabi-Sabi is facinating. Nakashima built some of the most incredible pieces I've ever seen. But from my standpoint as a guitar builder (I'll leave the term luthier for those who understand this far better than I do) the use of second grade woods is a problem. I personally have a lot of wood that I wouldn't hesitate to use if building a guitar for myself. The problem occurs when I try to sell it. Consumers have come to expect the best grades of wood and the workmanship to go along with it. I just feel that I had better like a guitar made of second grade wood really well, as I probably wouldn't be able to sell it in todays market.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

BTW,The concept is truth. Yin-Yan, Zen,all concepts of living in the present, and, everyone is in everything;The concept of all things-instruments,wood etc. and music very important ingredients of being and full membership in humanity. How could instruments designed, wood harvested-worked-and intoned by a mind and soul in 'place' not have some, if not many advantages--crap, hard not to be judgemental-observe and le it go-no value judgements-TOUGH

Hesh, very well stated. I agree that there may be a niche market lurking around out there for this type of guitar. However, I also agree that entering it would be risky.

Those of us just now struggling to create a name (or brand) for ourselves are often wary to stray too far from the norm. If I was already a well known builder and had years of backlog orders I might be willing to take the risk....but alas, I'm not.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't want to build my brand as the guy who uses second grade woods.Dave Rector39092.46125

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

Well,

Markets and tastes don't change until people go out there and try and change them. I remember here in the UK years ago the debate about lead-free petrol and how it would never be introduced as it was too expensive to make, engines would need to be converted and the public would never buy it. Well . . . guess what. I also remember just a year or so back when Global Warming "didn't exist" and was just "scare-mongering by a few eco-freaks".

I don't think that Thomas was talking at all about using unsound wood both tonally and structurally. But if you have to discard/destroy say 90% of a tree to get the one cosmetically perfect, knot free guitar set then that gives me problems. The main problem to me is that the current price of wood does not, in my opinion, reflect the true economic cost in terms of long term impact to this scarce resource - our Planet.

A case in point is Madagascan Rosewood that can be bought here in Europe and the US reasonably cheaply. Beautiful wood, but take a look here.

Being at the cutting edge is where you get cut most often so for handmade guitar makers who already find it hard to impossible to make a living wage, bucking the norm is pretty much impossible. But things will change. Remember the "I never got fired for buying IBM" line? When did you last buy and IBM PC?

I have a pension income to support me (at least until the next big World Crash) so can be a dilettante guitar maker and do things differently if I want, and if I only sell a few then so be it, but I find it hard not to use good wood with it's own character.

Here's to Wabi-Sabi. I think I might also try Kimo Sabe which I think involves making guitars wearing a mask

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

WOW! In that case I have plenty of WABI-SABI

Kevin Gallagher sells many guitars to Japanese customers, I think he may be able to add something to this thread.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Well a slight twist on this is that most consumers, in my most humble opinion, do not the difference between the woods to start with. I do realize that this is an extreme generalization but I think many of you have had to spend some time walking you customers through the wood pile helping them select their woods. I think many of you will also reflect that often the question of "Okay, how much does that set cost?" played a role in the selection. I would also predict that many chioces were made on price, usually just slightly higher than the client originally wanted to spend. I would also guess that very few clients said "that set is only how much?, WOW I will take that cheap set!" Why?, because in our western culture, and in all modern cultures really, if it costs more it just has to be better! So I feel for this to successful there is a much larger shift that will have to occur. But it is not unreasonable to attempt to move in that direction and I commend Tom for bringing this topic forward. One of my customers built an awesome birch guitar from some wood that I cut from a load of birch that was destined for firewood. He had it at the last GAL convention and lots of people gave great positive feedback on that guitar, that was a $50 set!

Shane

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Canada

This is one of the more interesting threads in awhile for me.
How to find a balance between what the market demands and what the earth provides, that's the trick, eh?
It's almost like the alternative fuels thing to me. We are really accustomed to using gasoline or diesel for automotive fuels, but eventually, the price of oil is going to skyrocket as demand outpaces the supply of oil in the ground. Alternative fuels are similar to alternative woods, and within the scope of alternative woods are woods that are excellent tonewoods, yet cosmetically not as perfect as what the market is accustomed to. Convincing an entire marketplace of the need to utilize those alternatives and find the beauty in them seems to be the task at hand.

On another thought, the concept of the wood dictating the product reminds me very much of Judi Threet's inlay technique. I've always been impressed whith her inlay work (who isn't?) as well as her wonderful guitars, but the articles she published in recent issues of Guitarmaker magazine have me all the more impressed. It is a very organic approach.

I would be most interested to hear someone of Ervin Somogyi's stature comment on all this... as a person who has studied the nature of materials to the degree he has, he might have some interesting thoughts.
Don Williams39092.5176967593

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

In some ways, we have started moving to that... when I started building, most people expected a guitar made with a spruce top, and mahogany or indian/brazilian rosewood back/sides. You were 'on the fringe' if you used maple or koa. These days, many many more types of wood are acceptable for backs, sides and tops. Scarcity of material played a part, but luthiers who were willing to use 'unacceptable' woods like walnut, myrtle, etc. and then educate their customers had a very large part in making alternate materials acceptable and desired by customers.

Now to move to the next step - seeing the beauty in 'imperfect' wood....

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]Well you WILL be a well known builder and people WILL be standing in line for your very cool guitars Dave! After yesterdays customer appreciation comments you are on your way my friend!!![/QUOTE]

You are too kind Hesh.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

[QUOTE=ToddStock] 'Guitar: An American Life' by Tim Brookes discusses luthier Rick Davis' use of woods such as sycamore, cherry, walnut, etc. from his home state of Vermont. Seems like Rick tends to use local woods whenever possible, with exotics saved for where they must be used. This seems to be something along the same line of thought as Wabi-Sabi [/QUOTE]
Todd-
Thanks for mentioning that book. I'm just reading it now, and I was amused by Rick Davis' refreshing views on shell inlay and other topics. Recommended.
John

I saw this over on the woodnet.net forum a while back. Made by a guy named Wayne Anderson... Here's an example of letting the features of the wood dictate the design. (Not necessarily related to Wabi-Sabi, I guess). This guy makes a lot of neat stuff. Anderson Planes



Note the acorn "nut" to match the "squirrel's tail."

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR