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I'm building one right now with a double mortise and tenon joint...
I figured if its good enough for a steel string why wouldn't it work on a nylon string?

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I agree with Michael. Obviously for a raised fingerboard the Spanish heel type construction isn't exactly ideal. But in general, I think it is best. The heel extension seems to help prevent the need for a reset as it distributes the pulling force over more area.

I still have yet to see anyone - anywhere - recommend another joint for any reason other then thinking its easier.

Someone mentioned someone who has made 1000+ guitars who uses a dovetail. It sounds like this may be a steel string builder also building classicals. I believe they require vastly different approaches. In general, classical players don't seem interested in makers who make both. I think they agree that a different approach is needed.

Speaking of breaking from tradition, one thing I have noticed time and time again is that classical players are always interested in the latest "innovations" (lattice tops, double tops, sound ports, etc) but generally put their money where the tradition is. And if not, it seems the "innovative" guitars hit the used market pretty quickly.

Regarding the above point, I think it may be that classical players put more trust in the maker's intuition then the design or theories on sound.

As Michael stated, Fleta used a dovetail. Obviously nothing wrong with it, and there are other differences in his guitars as compared to the Spanish tradition. It all depends what you're after, as a Fleta is different from a Santos, etc. If you're a steel string maker making a guitar for a crossover artist then a dovetail is fine. If you're making a Fleta style guitar a dovetail is fine.

However, if you're making a traditional Spanish guitar (Torres, Santos, Garcia, Manuel Ramirez, Simplicio) a dovetail makes no sense. It may be OK, but its a departure that is not only undesireable for this kind of guitar but also kind of weird, and certainly not something to do on the basis of ease.jfrench39101.8773726852

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

I love tradition, I think that we have lost an enormous amount through our race for innovation. You will learn more about luthiery by visiting a good instrument museum than in any modern guitar store. You'll learn more about the craft from reading Romanillos book on Torres than from (dare I say it) Cumpiano or the other 'How to' books.

I love people to think outide of the norm when it comes to steel string guitars, but for a Classical, or I prefer Spanish guitar, tradition is the way to go in my view. For that pure Spanish sound you have to look no further than Torres, listen to one of his guitars or to Joshua's Issa, or a Kevin Aram Torres model, that I'm currently playing, and you'll understand.

Oh, Spanish Heel by the way!

Colin

Colin S39102.2057291667

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

A spline joint is tremendously strong. It is used by many American guitar builders including Ruck, Oribe, Byers, myself, and I am pretty sure Brune uses it. Not gluing the sides in the slots is traditional technique. By its very nature, there is some play in this joint. Otherwise, you could not slide the sides in the slot. The lack of rigidity of the sides in the slot (they can move) places most of the compressive stresses to the area alongside the fingerboard on the top. There have been numerous antique guitars that have split along fingerboard and shifted forward. This is what Brune was referring to. Romanillos' method of glued in wedges is an improvement, but could hardly be considered the tradtional way.
The spline joint is a mortice cut in both the body and the neck. A spline, with the grain going the same way as the neck, is fitted to both body and neck. The neck, spline and body are glued together in one operation. It is vastly stronger than the round dowels that hold on 90% of the Asian guitars, which hold together very well. I got the dimensions for the spline I use from Bob Ruck, a builder who needs no introduction and who has made many hundreds of guitars with this method. A 1/4" wide by 1/2" deep slot is cut in both the body and the neck. A 1/4" by 1" mahogany spline spans the joint. The block inside the guitar looks just like a slipper foot, with the same dimensions and grain orientation. You can stack up your heel just like the Spanish style, cut the inside part off the neck/heel, make your fitting of the block to the curvature of the rims, and glue it in place. Then, when the body is bound, glue the neck on with a spline and you could never guess it was not a Spanish style foot. A better terminology might be "slotted heel" versus "separate block" style.
I would have to say, Joshua, that the spline method is easier than the Spanish foot as I have done both for a fair number of guitars. With the spline, you don't have to set your action, i.e. neck angle, before the body is together, as you have to do with the Spanish foot. It makes binding the guitar easier. I wouldn't presume to say it is better than the slotted heel. I know that it has proven itself by many contemporary bulders whose guitars have traversed the globe.
The spline method does not allow you make the neck and body separately, finish them, and then attach them. The only way you can get the guitar to play correctly is to make planing the fingerboard and fretting the last step you do. French polishing the guitar is still tricky at the heel and where the fingerboard glues to the top.TRein39102.5464583333

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Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

Because of the inherent plasticity of wood and the tension imposed by steel strings, it is likely that most steel-stringed instruments will need their neck angle re-set at some time during their lives, hence the need for a neck/body joint that can be dissasembled. The much lower tension of nylon strings generally avoids this problem, and the "traditional" Spanish neck joint is designed to stay put for the life of the instrument. The obvious disadvantages to this approach are binding and finishing the instrument with the neck attatched. ( Some luthiers also cut the heel after the body has been assembled, a task requiring admirable skill and patience). With modern glues, cheap carbide bits and some simple jigs, joints such as splines, mortise/tenon, and dovetails are being used by world-class classical makers, apparently with success. I guess the acoustic effect of various neck joints is subject to debate, as is about everything else in lutherie.
One of Stradiveri's extant guitars has done well over several centuries using...........
a butt joint and one large iron spike.

Sorry for the blog. I am recovering from surgery and am bored and lonely

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

I looked through my notes and re-read Brune's reply on this subject and he does indeed use a spline and what Tom said above pretty much echo's Brune's thoughts as he expressed them to me.

Shane

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Canada

[QUOTE=JNixon]
One of Stradiveri's extant guitars has done well over several centuries using...........
a butt joint and one large iron spike.

[/QUOTE]

All of my lutes are made with a butt joint and initially held with a handmade screw while the dowels are drilled and pegged. After repairing an original Heiber that still had the basic handmade screw left in place I now leave the screw inplace on Heibers. My butt jointed necks have up to 17 strings attached to them. The one under construction will have 25, and never need a re-set (hopefully).

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.