Official Luthiers Forum!

Think I will try my hand at FP. Couple of pretty stupid questions.

I know the instructions call for disolving flakes with alcohol. Is this the same as denatured ??? If not where do I buy alcohol?

Can I apply FP over lacquer (nitro). I have a guitar where the lacquer finish needs re-doing (more coats) and was thinking I might do this instead.

Thanks all for any advise you can offer.

Rich--

I can answer part of it. Denatured alcohol will work -- I get mine from Ace hardware. Lab grade is probably the best, but you have to know someone with access and the difference is most likely minimal.

I'm too much of a newbie to have a cogent answer for part two. Shellac will cover most anything and most anything will cover shellac, but...

Someone with more experience will need to chime in with this.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

Everclear...190 proof...any liquor store.

This stuff is better and safer than hardware store DA. I know from 1st hand experience...get Everclear!

Don't FP over Nitro. Repair it with Nitro.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Not any liquor store. Here in Ohio they are not allowed to sell it. I think I might have a friend who has a relative in North Carolina that can bring a bottle during a visit this summer. Clinton

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]

To bad you can't use 20 year old single malt scotch for French polish - or can you...... [/QUOTE]

Glass of scotch in one hand.....french polishing fad in the other. I dont see why it won't work.

Hesh--

There are a variety of chemistries used to 'denature' grain alcohol and make it unsafe to drink -- all are toxic to one degree or another. My dim rememberance of college chemistry tell me that long words with a lot of number in them are not as safe as shorter words.

My right hand is in a glove when I FP.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

Turns out there are a lot of states that prohibit the sale of grain alcohol.
Here in Washington, you have to get a license of some kind to buy it. I was
up in British Columbia over the weekend and was tempted to bring some
home, but chickend out. Probably a federal crime. But lesseeeee.....Idaho's
only 30 minutes from here. I wonder....

Paul (Sprockett)?

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Hesh--

I like the Hock brand flakes that are available at Woodcraft. They come in three grades or colors; blonde, orange and garnet. They seem to be on sale right now. The blonde worked well on the Sitka top of the 0-16. My plan is to use garnet on the body of number three and blonde on the top.

apologies for the highjack    

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Jim and others where should I get my flakes and
what kind of flakes should I buy. I plan on using epoxy as the pore filler
and I want a tad of a amber/aged look.

Lastly can you use a slightly darker shelac on the body and lighter on the
top with out any issues or making it more difficult?

[/QUOTE]

Hesh,

Ron Hock's flakes from Woodcraft are just fine, in my limited experience
and I used darker shellac on koa b&s, lighter on the Lutz top and it looks
great. Bear in mind I've done exactly one FP finish on a guitar.
burbank39101.9148611111

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now known around here as Pat Foster
_________________
http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Thanks all,

JJ, are you saying FP wont stick over Nitro or that it would be a backwards step?? This is not a repair job. Just a guitar I have hanging around from last year build and the lacquer job needs some work. Was just looking at is as an opportunity to learn how to FP.

WHat is the safety issue some seem to be mentioning? I dont plan to drink it, just mix with the flakes.

I disolved the flakes in DN abd to my surprise it took a couple days to fully disolve. Thought it would be instant for some reason.

I dont think I can get grain alcohol in NY. What are the disadvantages of DN??

Rich--

From a safety standpoint, denatured alcohol is a solvent with some amount of toxicity. Having it on bare skin once in a while is probably no big deal. The FP process will keep your polishing hand in contact with alcohol for extended periods of time which is why I use a glove. Shellac itself is an FDA approved food product. Overall, FP is pretty benign as a finishing product.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

Rich...it will definitely stick to nitro. I didn't realize it was a practice guitar. If I were restoring it I would go with Nitro, however.

I agree that you should glove up if you use DA. If you use Everclear, just lick the ETOH off your fingers before it has a chance to evaporate

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=rich altieri]
WHat is the safety issue some seem to be mentioning? I dont plan to drink it, just mix with the flakes.

[/QUOTE]
Denatured alcohol is ethanol (the drinking solvent) with methanol added to make it unsafe to drink.
Methyl hydrate (also sold as shellac thinner) is mostly methanol.
You can't get ethanol to distill to more than 190 proof (95%)from a water/alcohol mix. Google low-boiling azeotrope for more info. The 'lab' alcohol (99~100%) used to have benzene added as I recall- not good for you and also caused a severe headache the morning after!
None of these things are good for you via inhalation or contact (or ingestion). Probably the most immediate reason to keep it off your hands is that your skin will get very dry and cracked, and amber shellac will make your hands look like those of a 4-pack a day smoker.
Buy a box of nitrile gloves- great for working wih solvents, epoxy, PU glue, etc.
Cheers
John

You can get the flakes directly from Ron Hock as well...but you can't order from his website. Don't know if it is cheaper but he's a cool guy to speak with on the phone...especially if you want to learn about plane irons...his are the best.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=burbank]
Here in Washington, you have to get a license of some kind to buy it. I was
up in British Columbia over the weekend and was tempted to bring some
home, but chickened out.
[/QUOTE]
Just phoned my local (BC) liquor store and found out that you need a special 'letter' aka permit from the Liquor Control authorities in order to buy it here as well.

John

Well, John, I guess I didn't miss out after all.

[QUOTE=rich altieri] I disolved the flakes in DN abd to my surprise it took a
couple days to fully disolve. Thought it would be instant for some reason.
[/QUOTE]

Rich, You can get a cheap coffee/spice grinder and grind up the flakes.
Really cuts down on the dissolve time, like a several hours. Probably saw
that here on the OLF some time ago.burbank39101.9860763889

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

For a first attempt at French polishing just go out and buy some of the Zinser seal coat shellac or the Liberon de-waxed pale FP, these are just flakes in alcohol and does as good a job as anything you'll be able to mix up. I think Michael and a few of the others have switched over to the Zinser. I'm on 30 or so French polished instruments and I have now usethe Liberon de-waxed Special Pale French polish, rather than making my own (you don't get any brownie points for mixing your own). You'll still need alcohol and walnut oil for the rubber. I use lab grade alchohol, but any DA will do, honest.

Our professional French polisher at the university uses the Liberon pre-mixed now and ordinary methylated spirits, even though I've offered him lab grade alchohol, he say's his Meths works fine and he's only been doing it 40 years.

There's a lot of mystique built up over French polishing, but all it boils down to is rubbing shellac onto wood, how hard is that?

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I use Wild Turkey

I attended Marshall Brune's FP workshop at the GAL convention last summer and then went to his 3-day class in Evanston, IL. I have FPed 4 guitars with good results. Everclear/Ethanol can be bought in liguor stores in Illinois, but not Michigan (don't know about other states). Needless to say I brought home a gallon or so of Everclear when I returned home from Illinois. Marshall (and his dad, Richard) said that Ethanol is better because it does not dissolve any of the wax in shellac, which DA does - not a good thing if you like a hard durable finish.

Robbie O'Brien has also attended Marshall's FP class and gives a good short version in his guitar finishing DVD.

Regards,
max

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

Thanks guys for all the good info. I think I bought Robbies DVD on finishing some time ago. Plan to go back and hit that before starting, then off to find some walnut oil and give this a try. Appreciate all the feedback as usual

Good point on the canned shellac, Colin. The only reason I like the flakes now is the options it provides when modifying the color. Once I try using some of the tints in the Zinsser material I should never need to use the flakes again.

I'm surprised that Michael P. hasn't chimed in on this yet.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I know michael uses the Zinser, as I said I use the Liberon. I never colour in any of my finishes so it's no bother to me.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.