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I'm not sure that many guitar buyers (that would include me) are 'musical' enough (have good enough 'ears') to be able to separate the appearance/weight/finish/bling, etc of a guitar from the sound.
There have been many examples of 'real musicians' playing fairly plain instruments with great sound. I wonder how many of those guitars could be sold off the wall of a large guitar 'center' nowadays.
Too bad that it's so difficult to do real 'blind testing' of guitars. Could be interesting.
John

Jon, that is a seriously cool plane!!

You're giving me TAS again....Dave Rector39092.6506597222

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

I am sure Jim Olson had no problems selling the guitar to the next guy or gal on the waiting list.
One note of clarification: I am not anti-bling. I enjoy working with beautiful,figured wood as much as anybody. The whole wabi-sabi thing is not to the exclusion of bling, just in addition to.

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Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

From what I have read here, it seems that the Golden age of the guitar and consumer choice has developed at an astonishing rate. In the two years I have been using guitar forums, I have seen discussions change from "The Tonal Qualities of the Guitar" to "Purple Mottled Flainian Pekawood is the New Brazillian Rosewood, look at the wild figuring, BABY!!"....

I thought that guitars were meant to be played, not ogled at. I thought that the primary objective of the communication between luthier and customer was to discuss the tonal properties of the wood, how the guitar could be constructed to maximise projection, how stable the guitar would be in certain environments, how playable the neck would be.

I kinda thought that the real guitarist would compromise perfect aesthetics for tone. From what I have read from this thread, and my travels on the internet, the guitar has become an art form, not an instrument.

From what I have read, exotic woods sometimes need to be flatsawn to show off the qualities. Surely that compromises structural integrity!!

Gimmee playability, reliability and tone above aesthetics anyday.

But then, look at the car I drive, and you'll understand what I mean.... Sam Price39093.1846990741

I hate bling. Abalone (fishscale vomit) does nothing for me.

My motto on life it "It may be crap, but it was free"

I am finishing off #13 and from the instruments have completed I have bought the back & side sets for..........

NONE!!!

All are salvaged from a dumpster.

True I have a set of Granadillo (free remember!!) on it's way to being a guitar and a set of leopard wood that came in the same parcel, and there is a EIR jumbo that came together at the evening class, but I've made mandos & guitars out of benches salvaged from a High School science lab.

Tops I buy.

I LIKE colour variation and irregular bearclaw so lowest grade tops are great for me.

My first dread cost me about ?120 (inc electrics and a hard case) to build.

Even after splitting the total cost of the leopardwood & granadillo + shipping, the guitar I'm building for Trica will be handed over for under ?200.

I LOVE character in wood. I love Willie Nelson's Trigger & Rory Galagher's strat and (being ginger and 240 pounds) you'll appreciate when I say conventional beauty don't come high on my list of important things.

BUT

and a BIG BUT

this thread was started by a tone wood supplier.........

reckon he has a load of grade 3 wood he needs to offload?

Only kidding!! I'll take it!!

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How often do you raid the skips then, Martin? Sam Price39093.2968287037

Great posts Sam and Martin!

Being a scrounger myself, hard not to agree with what is stated above!

[QUOTE=martinedwards]


BUT

and a BIG BUT

this thread was started by a tone wood supplier.........

reckon he has a load of grade 3 wood he needs to offload?

Only kidding!! I'll take it!![/QUOTE]

Martin, I know you jest. I like BIG BUTS and I cannot lie. But for the record, I am primarily a guitar builder. One of my other responsibilities is being a representative of a tonewood supplier.
I think Dave White made a good comment about what do you do with the remainder of the tree to get a small percentage of perfect sets. With a bit of creativity and revised aesthetic sense, we can use much more of the tree to good effect.
Some people alluded to abalone and 40-style appointments, so I'll add my $.02. While I know some buyers get all hot and bothered by this look and the market drives a lot of what we do, I am reminded about a conversation I had with Jimmy D'Aquisto. He was opposed to shell because "you are removing a living thing and replacing it with a dead thing."

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Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] But turning, which often starts with wood in the log, requires one to pay attention to the particular piece of wood and put its individual characteristics to the best use. One has to be open to changing the design as the piece opens up. Guitars can be approached that way, but they are far more abstracted from the raw material, with a lot of formal requirements that must be met. And then they have to sound good and not fall apart. It's a big challenge for the wabi-sabi approach.[/QUOTE]

Along the same lines; in archery, or at least traditional bow making, bows made from challenging billets with twists and knots are priced for their "character" if they can be made into serviceable weapons by a good bowyer. Some of the most sought after bow woods like yew and osage orange love to twist and misbehave, so learning how to work with the characteristics of each individual piece of wood and not a fixed idea of what the "perfect bow" is supposed to look like is necessary for a reliable result. If not, your bow might break or be as useful as a stick of wet spaghetti; sort of wabi-sabi by default? I have often thought of how this approach could be incorporated into guitar making, but for me it is hard to imagine.

There is a lot more to Japanese design, philosophy, religion, history and so on than can be easily discussed here, but it has no doubt been a great source of inspiration for the western arts, architecture and design. In my profession (architecture) many of the modern classics from the last century have used themes and ideas from traditional Japanese buildings, combined with western technology and materials; with varying success according to some, nevertheless it is something that continues to fascinate.

Arnt39093.4204282407

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

[QUOTE=Sam Price] How often do you raid the skips then, Martin? [/QUOTE]

Well I've been twice to the shopfitters and filled a school minibus both times!!

I have enough walnut in stock for two classes of GCSE pupils Technology projects or about 10 back & sides sets depending on who gets to it first!!!

Sadly we don't have any science rooms scheduled for refits in the near future

I'm a real believer in function over form.

Look at my dream car..... landrover defender 110. basically not that much different from the design that was first built in the 40s. but it does the job that it's meant to, and if bits break off, you weld new bits on!!!

That's why I really don't want a Lowden ( ) I'd love one on some levels, and have done for 25 years.........BUT I'd keep it wrapped in cotton wool and be scared to play it. My home builds? They cost 1/20 what a lowden costs and if one breaks? ah well that's the next project!!

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[QUOTE=martinedwards]
Sadly we don't have any science rooms scheduled for refits in the near future [/quote]

Awwww, so that means no more beautiful mahogany tables to adapt?

[quote]I'm a real believer in function over form.

Look at my dream car..... landrover defender 110. basically not that much different from the design that was first built in the 40s. but it does the job that it's meant to, and if bits break off, you weld new bits on!!![/quote]

I think that is a British characteristic. I too subscribe to the function-over-form philosophy, as I stated in an earlier post. If we're talking of cars, I don't look at whether it does 0 to 60 in 1.098 seconds, I look at how cheap the parts'll be if things go wrong, and how reliable the brand is.

Hey...if you ever end up getting a Landrover, parts are SOOO cheap and plentiful I know this, because my husband used to work for Landrover. I won't even start to tell you how cheap they have become thanks to our cheap labour Indian manufacturers.

A friend of mine pootles around in a 1974 Landrover, because the parts are always the same! She pays hardly any tax on the thing, and does very many miles to the deisel gallon...

Back to guitars, though, I think the whole issue is dependant on personal income and demand. Perhaps that is the reason why we are getting such a variety of exotic wood guitars with exotic design elements is due to the number of people with expendible income the more money you have, the more interested in "form" you are, and to the expense of forests...

It a kind of bittersweet thing though...I really AM interested as a spectator (not a consumer) in the progress of guitar design, to see how luthiers are developing ideas.

However in the real world, these perfect guitars built with valuable materials as you say, HAVE to be wrapped in cotton wool!!!Sam Price39093.4818634259

[QUOTE=ToddStock] Oddly enough, over here, the Defender was a niche luxury SUV before Rover decided to stop import.

Had a couple across the street that picked one up, then promptly dumped it for a loaded Range Rover due to lack of A/C, rough ride, and too much ground clearance for modest entry while wearing a tight skirt...

In other words, all the reasons why I hung onto my '70s Land Cruiser for so long...
[/QUOTE]

Todd,

Got any pictures of you getting into (or out of) your 70's Land Cruiser wearing a tight skirt?

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I haven't built yet, but I am acquiring wood already for when I start to learn.  The first set that I bought was some Panama Rosewood. I wanted the one set that Gilmore had, but it sold hours before I called. They had a billet with some bug holes and I chose to take a chance. It ended up providing me one set with only one small bug hole in each side of the back. I don't mind it because it will only allow me to learn a little more than what I would have been able to with the perfect set.

I'd buy some of these rejected sets. A small pin hole? Just a large pore that can be filled! A mineral streak? Just added character! Best of all - for me at least - the wood'll be cheaper than 'perfect' wood yet provide 100% of the functionality for 95% of the relative appearance. Bargain! As a newbie with two younglings and a single income cost is a very big factor.

Seriously, any suppliers out there with this kind of reject stuff let us know! Post some pictures! It'll sell quick! I'd certainly brave SWMBO's wrath to pick up some more cost effective tonewood.

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OppsAoibeann39103.7592824074

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Aoibeann

i agree that if suppliers dare to post pictures of 2nd's and 3rd's they'd sell like hot cakes. on my first few instruments i tried to hunt down second rate stuff but had a tough time. i resorted 'A' tops and to 3 piece backs with a contrasting spieces up the middle - another thing that suppliers could advertise to make use of smaller lumber.
about wabi sabi and the current market and customer expectations for "perfect" woods, i feel like a bunch of high end builders and retailers need to take their share of responsibility. easy for me to say because i'm not trying to make a living at it. fair enough. but i've looked at lots of builder's sites where it seems to me they're making more money on wood upcharges than they are from building the guitar.
granted, the wood is amazing. but it seems like there are lots of builders and retailers that are more than eager to add to the hype when it comes to what wood is worth and what it will do to the sound of a guitar. one little example that i hope doesn't hurt anyone's feelings - if a "lucky 12" guitar sounds great, it's going to be because of the amazing luthiers building them and will have nothing to do figured spruce.
for the luthiers that get to make a fair living building instruments, i'm more than happy. if players and collectors have enough cash to pay thousands and thousands for a guitar, i'm glad that instrument makers get to benefit.
but as far as our forests are concerned, it is a very sad thing to treat wood like junk because of a tight knot or a bit of extra color or lack of enough color. should our suppliers make more of it available, count me in for building with it.
phil

All I know is that I built a guitar that sounds pretty dang good.Not only to me ,but to some fine musicians here in Nashville.The way I`ve got it figured ,if it doesn`t sound good ,youv`e just got a pretty mantle piece.        WABI SABI
                      James W B           ;    

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

SWMBO??? Can i be educated please? Thanks!

She Who Must Be Obeyed....

I don't have that problem, see.

Many thanks Sam, maybe ya don't but i do!

My wife is very very kind, she let me hide under the bed when i stole the dough roller to build my last jig!

As someone whos worked in retail & restaurants, there is an equation for markup.

cost plus whatever percent.

3rd grade wood for a dread? say ?100

add a mark up of 200% = ?300

Add 35 hours work @ ?15 an hour (?525) and the guitar costs ?825

BRW & vintage spruce top?

the wood costs ?500

add the same markup and labour and suddenly a guitar that you couldn't tell apart blindfold costs?

?2025

Now as a customer much more than a seller, it seems that using the rare expensive wood us a (useful) method of improving the profit margin.

As a hobby builder who sells a few, I'm happy to leave the mastergrade stuff to the guys who's name can command ?3000 for an acoustic. I'm a nobody. If I asked ?3000 for a commission NO-ONE would touch it (and rightly so.....)

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Todd, i think my wife would best be described as a SWREITHOO( She Who Runs Everything In That House Of Ours) and me a HWSVHWSY (He Who Steps Very High When She Yells), Thank God i made the Kitchen lamp hooks very strong from the ceiling.

I see that our bud Shane spoiled ya nicely, good on ya my friend, i'm sure that even his low grade stuff is just fabulous looking and that you will make a very gorgeous guitar with it!

Razer? You got me on the edge of my chair and anxious there buddy! Thanks!

Serge

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