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I've searched the archives and read up on what's been said about fish glue. I reckon I'm a-gonna git me a gallon from Norland. A few questions:

I would imagine that since the previous discussions about this glue, more OLF members have tried it. Anybody new (or not so new) to fish glue want to comment on their experiences, in particular with the Norland product?

Is it definitely okay to freeze this glue? If there's any risk of loss of glue strength from freezing, I don't want to buy a gallon.

I'm thinking of using it for gluing on bridges, among other things. A couple possible issues come to mind, based on what I've read.

Clamping: I use a vacuum clamp for bridges when building, regular old clamping on some repairs. With a vacuum clamp, what would be the recommended time for initial clamping before unclamping to clean up squeeze-out and then reclamping? What would be the total recommended clamping time for vacuum clamping? (These questions are based on my understanding that fish glue requires very long clamping times.)

Cleanup: People have said that fish glue can be a bit difficult to clean up... When gluing a bridge on a guitar in for repair, if the finish is cracked so that water can get down into the wood, does it sometimes take so much water to clean up fish glue that I might get more water into the wood than I want? On a new guitar with a french polished top, does the cleanup difficulty pose a risk of damaging the shellac finish?

Any other helpful tips on using this glue for bridge gluing - for both new guitars and repairs??

What about cleanup for gluing braces? I normally have a line of very tiny droplets of sqeeze-out along the glue joint. With Titebond or LMI glue, I can easily clean these up just a couple minutes after clamping, running a sharpened (chisel-point) stick of hardwood along the joint. The little glue droplets have gotten leathery at that point and they come right off cleanly. Quick and easy and it's done. Does fish glue gel quickly like that so that one can easily do that kind of cleanup of squeeze-out?

I know there are hide glue users out there who will always argue that hide glue is best, and you have my respect. However, for this discussion, while I welcome helpful comments based on anyone's first-hand experience using both of these glues, I would prefer if people refrain from hijacking this thread with a soap box speech on the Great Virtues of Hide Glue and the absolute idiocy of using anything else.     Todd Rose39113.5371759259

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

There's nothing than can compare to Hide.... Just kidding Todd.

I've used both but I have more experience with Hide glue than Fish. I would say that for all it's merits (huge open time/dries to crystal hardness etc...) Fish glue is very hard to clean up. It becomes extremelly tacky.

On my last guitar I used it to glue on the back and top to the rim. I tried waiting a while before cleaning up, as one would with titebond or Hide, and still, clean up, for me, was a nightmare.    I used a damp rag to go around (when I could) and I thought that I had gotten all of it. When I came back and it had dried, I could still see the glue in the joint.

Maybe one would have better luck with a sharp chisel/stick. Or maybe I should of waited longer and tried to have it 'gel' more... I don't know how long this would take though. They recommend clamping for about 12 hours and an open time of 1hour +... I guess after a few hours it would of been better.

I would hesitate to try it for a bridge glue up. I'm sure many members have tried this with success, but I personally would think twice, especially if the guitars' finish was a fresh FP.

Cheers,

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

If clamping force is critical, then I would think that vacuum is not the way to go. With a good pump, you are only going to get about 11 psi. You can get several multiples of that with mechanical clamping. By contrast, Franklin recommends in the range of 150 psi for Titebond, iirc.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I'm confused about the difficulties of cleanup. I've found nothing easier to clean up than fish glue. Damp rag and it's gone. Even when dry, get it a little wet and it wipes up just fine for me.

I just started using fish glue and have glued a few back reinforcement strips and some braces with it,using a go-bar deck. I agree with the clean-up issues already mentioned. If you are too aggressive with the rag and hot water you will pull glue out of the joint. Even with quite careful clean-up, and some scraping once the glue has cured, you can see glue residue. Fish glue doesn't seem to get to the 'leathery' stage where it will peel up
easily- either that or it happens at 3am when I'm not around. It does seem to cure to a very hard, clear and tough film. Good fits and good clamping are essential.

It does have a 'shelf life' so you should share that gallon with friends, open a factory, or buy a smaller quantity if possible (LeeValley?).

I've got a vacuum pump and I've done some experiments, and I agree 100% with Howard. If you can use clamps+cauls you will get a lot more pressure. Vacuum clamping is great where it is used most- clamping epoxy-type fiberglass/carbon laminates in boatbuilding, etc- very large areas and very flexible materials. Unless you have a perfect fit, vacuum will not 'pull together' smaller parts well. If you do have a perfect fit, why not just use a rub joint and **** glue?
Keep us posted!
Cheers
John

[QUOTE=ToddStock] My experiments with fish glue indicate that clamping pressure is critical - the stuff seems much more likely to fail if the thickness of the glue line is much over a few thou, so vacumn clamping might be the way to go. [/QUOTE]

Todd, you meant "vacuum clamping might NOT be the way to go", right?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Hide glue pulls the joint togther as it cures, doesn't fish glue do the same? If so, then clamping pressure may not be as important. As long as the fit is good and a good amount of pressure is applied as the glue sets up.

Shane

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Canada

Ummmmm... I hate to be one to argue...but, vacuum clamping would be ideal. I use vac clamping for my braces, and never have an issue with too thick a glue line. In fact, if anything, a really powerful pump can starve a joint by pulling the glue right out. If fish glue needs "consistant" pressure, there's nothing like the atmospheric pressure of a vacuum to do that. And as long as you're running the pump continuously for the clamping time, you shouldn't have any issues.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I use it for bridges, though I glue them prior to french polishing.

My advise is to not use the fish glue for the bridge unless you're also joining the soundboard and gluingt he braces with it. It takes a lot of heat to let go, and if you're using titebond or somethng similar for the soundboard join you run the risk of the center seam opening if you ever have to remove the bridge.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

[QUOTE=jfrench] I use it for bridges, though I glue them prior to french polishing.

My advise is to not use the fish glue for the bridge unless you're also joining the soundboard and gluingt he braces with it. It takes a lot of heat to let go, and if you're using titebond or somethng similar for the soundboard join you run the risk of the center seam opening if you ever have to remove the bridge.[/QUOTE]
Alas, that's the point for me using it. Heat won't breatk it. That's why you break it with moisture.

I've only got limited experimental experience with it butI would be happy to build the whole guitar with it. I've tried two brands, the Lee Valley and the German brand Kremer. I've stuck softwood/softwood, hardwood/hardwood, and softwood/hardwood. With both brands when tested to destruction it has always been the wood that has given way even with the hardwood/hardwood joints.

I applied it and clamped it as I would HHG in the go-bar and cleaned up as I would LMI or titebond (piece of sharpened spruce then damp, not wet, paper towel) with no problem or residue, in fact very clean near-invisible joints.

I tried a clamping time down to 1 hour with the same results. My Kremer glue states a shelf life of 5 years, and as I buy it in 250ml bottles that's plenty long enough.

I'll probably still stick to HHG for my braces and bridge etc but for longer open time jobs then Fish is the way to go.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Anyone have some Fish glue from a gallon they're willing to share? I'd like to buy some, but not a gallon....maybe someone would like to split a gallon?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Don, I'm planning to order a gallon from Norland. I'd be happy to split it with you.

Colin, you said,

"I applied it and clamped it as I would HHG in the go-bar and cleaned up as I would LMI or titebond (piece of sharpened spruce then damp, not wet, paper towel) with no problem or residue, in fact very clean near-invisible joints."

How long did you wait to do the clean up with fish glue? What was the consistency of the squeeze-out at that point?

Paul, what brand of fish glue are you using? Have you been using it for bridges?

Since no one has really addressed this question, I'll copy it again here:

Clamping: I use a vacuum clamp for bridges when building, regular old clamping on some repairs. With a vacuum clamp, what would be the recommended time for initial clamping before unclamping to clean up squeeze-out and then reclamping? What would be the total recommended clamping time for vacuum clamping? (These questions are based on my understanding that fish glue requires very long clamping times.)

Anyone?

BTW, I spoke with Tim Norland today. Nice guy. He addressed a couple of my questions... He said that it is fine to freeze fish glue; no loss of glue strength; just might have to stir it when it thaws. He also said there should not be any issues with humidity to be concerned about, only with immersion in water. I meant to ask him what he thinks about clamping pressure and the use of vacuum clamping with fish glue, but I forgot. I'll call again tomorrow.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

If someone is prepared to pack and post a pint to Australia for me at my cost I would like to give some a try.

Cheers

Kim

Kim, if you look here

Kremer They sell Fish glue in 250ml bottles. Good stuff, I believe it's the one used on the Jose Romanillos course, but I may be wrong. I do know a number of the European guitar builders use it.

Todd I just left it about 10 mins before cleanup.

ColinColin S39114.2012037037

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Todd, that sounds great...let's do that. Let me know how much money you need to sell me half and ship it to Rhode Island.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Good idea...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Thanks for the suggestion, Todd. I'll check on that today, Don.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

[QUOTE=Colin S]

Todd I just left it about 10 mins before cleanup.

Colin[/QUOTE]

So, with the reputed very slow setting time of this glue, what state was it in at that point?

I'm probably annoying you at this point.    Please bear with me. It's just my nature to seek out as much information as I can about something like this before finally deciding to buy some, jump in, and try it out myself. Thanks.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I spoke with Tim Norland again today regarding clamping pressure, but he didn't have much to say about it. Apparently he's not familiar with vacuum clamping, but seemed to think that any reasonable clamping that holds the parts firmly together would suffice.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd, did you check to see if they would split a shipment of quarts instead of the gallon per Todd Stock's suggestion?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Don, I just PM'd you.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Just skimmed but still liquid inside, I only had beaded squeezout and two wipes with pieces of the damp kitchen paper took care of most of it. As I said just the same as Titebond.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Thanks, Colin.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/