Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi Folks,
I will be trying my first Lutz top very soon. I have been using Carpathian Sp. lately and have found it to be of excellent qualities. Beautiful creamy color, very stiff and a very exciting tap tone which will rival an Adi in most cases.

Has anyone used both species and what can I expect from a Lutz top as opposed to a Carpathian top?
Is it fare to make this comparison?

Thanks,
walter

It's like King Kong vs Godzilla. Just my opinion.

[edit]

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Walter like Howard said.

Carpathian is just ordinary European spruce grown in the Carpathian mountains, exactly the same species, Picea abies, as Italian or German or Swiss spruce. I love most Euro, by far my favourite top wood, so it would be no different for a good sample of 'Carpathian'.

I've not built with Lutz yet, though I have some in my stash, but from inspection of it I'd say that if I couldn't get Euro, I'd be perfectly happy to use lutz instead, it's the nearest thing to Euro I've seen from your side of the pond.

But really it's down to the actual piece of wood, generalising is very dangerous when it comes to wood.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

My last (SJ) used Carpathian and I love the sound. I'll be completing the same model soon with Lutz and looking forward to the comparison.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Colin, you really should give up the lower grade woods and use Sitka. It's the best there is.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Colin, you really should give up the lower grade woods and use Sitka. It's the best there is.[/QUOTE]

Now Don, you know I love sitka. I find that grades above AA give out a really good heat, but you need some of the lower grade stuff to get the fire started.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I really don't get you Sitka-haters....it's fantastic wood. Believe it or not, the best sounding guitars I've made have been sitka.

Maybe you need better building chops to get the most out of it... <ducking>

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

The second guitar that I have made had a lot to be desired cosmetically. I used a lower grade sitka spruce simply because I didn't have a lot of $$$$$ to spend.
I will never sell that old guitar because it sounds wonderful in every way. I have since gone back a couple of times and redone a few things to make it look a little better. It's just not for sale!!
Spruce is a great top wood.

walter

Actually the first few guitar I built I used sitka, and it is without doubt very good topwood for those that build in a way that suits it and more importantly play in a style that suits it. It's just that for me Euro does it very much better.

I just think that Sitka seems to need driving harder, and lacks the sublety that good Euro, and to some extent Adi, has.

I might consider Englemann, and I definitely like the feel of Lutz. But while I have a good supply of Euro and I do get fabulous Euro, well...

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Hey Colin, I now exactly what you mean. In reality, it's all about what we like the sound of, and what style music we like to play. I happen to really like the sound of sitka, and I also really like adi. Looking back through all the guitars I've played through the years, two of the four that stand out the most in sound quality had sitka tops. Both were Dreadnoughts too.

Another was a cedar Lowden, and the other (another dread) had a top that I can't be sure of, but it was probably sitka. Might have been euro.

Euro is only "nice" in my book, I don't see it as anymore special than other spruces per se. Personally, I'm not a fan of Engelmann. It just doesn't do it for me, but I have some very nice sets of it and may eventually use it again.
I recently had a person talking to me about building a guitar for him. He didn't want "Sitka" because that's what was on most production guitars, so he deemed it somehow inferior. I knew right then in the conversation that I wasn't sure I could build him a guitar he would like. I and wasn't sure I wanted to, either.

I think he will end up with a Taylor...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

This is going to fail as an analogy, but I'll take a crack at it anyway.

I'm using Italian because a luthier I really admire suggested it for my
style/sound goals. I went with it blindly, but after listening to a lot of
clips on the dream guitars website, I believe it sounds like adi with a
twist.

On an electric, that twist would be a twist of the tone knob, just a notch
or two, take a hair of the brightness off. Or the presence knob on an
amp.       

[QUOTE=Don Williams] I think he will end up with a Taylor...
[/QUOTE]

Ah! But if it was an R.Taylor, it might be Lutz!! . Just one of those phone calls that catches you off guard but I am excited to have them try it! Thanks Andy!!!

Shane

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Canada

Don, one of the best guitars I've ever heard was a sitka topped Dreadnaught too! Not however played by me, when I tried it it was weak and lacking in dynamic subtlety. You see it's not the sitka that is no good it's the sitka/Colin combination that sucks! Nothing wrong with a good bit of sitka in the right hands both builder and player.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=Shane Neifer] [QUOTE=Don Williams] I think he will end up with a Taylor...
[/QUOTE]

Ah! But if it was an R.Taylor, it might be Lutz!! . Just one of those phone calls that catches you off guard but I am excited to have them try it! Thanks Andy!!!

Shane[/QUOTE]

Shane,

Wow - first George Lowden and now Bob Taylor. Man that's fantastic

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Shane, I hope you have a stash marked 'OLF members only' tucked away?

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Having never experienced this Lutz spruce for myself, just exactly how would you folks describe it? It's a sitka hybrid, so wouldn't it be pretty much the same????

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Having never experienced this Lutz spruce for myself, just exactly how would you folks describe it? It's a sitka hybrid, so wouldn't it be pretty much the same????
[/QUOTE]

Don,

That's what I thought at first - but Lutz looks and feels very much like Euro spruce (very light and strong/stiff - the white spruce lineage is clear) but has the good qualities of sitka too - really tight grain and silking and it doesn't dent and ding when you look at it the wrong way like Euro. Heres' a pic of Euro/Lutz/sitka (left to right) I sent to Shane when I first got some of his wood:



Tone wise it has almost all of the complexities you get with Euro (I'd say it's about 95% similar to Euro) and in that way it is similarish to Adi. But then I haven't built with adi and have only played about 3 addi topped guitars.

Plus for the quality of the top wood it is remarkable value for money and it comes with Shane's fantastic attention to detail and sevice.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Don, I'd say it 's closer to good Euro or Adi than sitka. You really must get some, it could be your own new love. As I said if I couldn't get good Euro (and we can over here) then I would be happy as long as Lutz was available.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Wow....that is quite an endorsement. I'll have to buy a few hundred sets to sell to my friends over the Big Pond...

I'll say this Colin my friend, if you love mahogany as much as you do, then your taste can't be bad.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Filippo,

I'm sure Shane will comment, but kermodie and Lutz are the same wood.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Filippo, Carpathian IS just normal European Spruce (Picea abies) grown in the Carpathian mountains.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Fillipo,

Kermode is Lutz, as Dave said. Mario lives only 30 or 40 miles away from me and our harvest areas overlap. Lutz is no different than any other spruce though in the regard that a good tree will result in good tops just as poor tree will only produce poor wood. Next is the attention paid to the processing of the wood. An unattentive processor can turn good wood into bad tops by introducing runout and cutting off quarter. The whole process is not rocket science but it does require paying attention to the details, once you understand what they are.

Anyway, Mario has access to good wood and has been doing this long enough that I would hope he has the processing figured out. I haven't seen any of his wood for a while now though. But he is certainly another (and probably only) Lutz option.

Shane

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Canada

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Colin, you really should give up the lower grade woods and use Sitka. It's the best there is.[/QUOTE]

Sitka is great stuff... I've been using if for bridges and necks and it works great!

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com