Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi there, last post for the day....promise.
Im curious as to whether someone has posted a photo essay on how to create shoulders like these
{I dont know exactly what they are called and would be grateful if someone could clear that up for me, if there is a correct terminology}



Ive used Howard Klepppers guitars as an example, because they are gorgeous pieces of art, and its nice to use any excuse to look at them. But Im extremely keen to know exactly how this is done...
{I have an idea but Id like to see the process outlined by someone who knows}
I looked through the archives but couldnt find anything, but that may be because I dont know exactly what to look for.
If someone has an explanation and/or some photos of the process of building shoulders of this type,
Id be extremely pleased if they could lay some info on me.
Cheers
Charliewood

I dont see it as being anything too difficult to do - obviously you need to bend your sides to what ever shape you want, and I would simply take a std size neck block, mine are 3x1.5 by however high, and shape it to accept the sides as they are bent (is this that different from doing a flush fit double florentine ??). Looks like Howards neck heels are are all flush fit on the sides, so you need to take that into account when making the neck block - ie, narrower by the thickness of two side pieces. After that its build as normal ... unless you are Howard and there are hidden dovetails in there somewhere

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I know its not extra-headache difficult... but there are standard operations in luthiery photo documented around here practically daily,,
I was kind of hoping someone documented a build with these type shoulders...
Im sure this would seem easy to a talented someone who has made alot of guitars like yourself Tony... but for a newb like me there were some puzzling aspects to it.
Its definitely a really beautiful style of instrument, Id love to make one for myself down the road.
Cheers
Charliewood

Definitely something i will do, and when i do, i'll do like Tony said. i love the venitian cutaways very much and that type of shoulder, the way the sides connect with the neck bolck is pretty .

Mabye Howard would be so kind as to enlighten us with a brief description and a few photos if he has them.???
I know there are a couple others here who have built instruments with this type of shoulders, and my plea extends to them as well, although no names come to mind.
I would like to make a guitar with such shoulders on both sides, but unlike Howard's creations, I would make them symetrical. The cutaways are amazing as well though!
Cheers
Charliewood

Howards guitars sure are pretty....

MAybe he'll shed some light on this.

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
I think that we are very, very fortunate to have a luthier like Howard here on the OLF! [/QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more....

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Likewise Hesh,
Im not anxious to to try and impliment too many of Howards designs either - as they are too complex for my woodworking skill at present,
and also Ive got my own row to hoe as it were....
But Ive loved these designs since the first time Ive seen them.
I believe one of the first instances that stands out in my mind is the Phillip Interdonati masterpieces that were profiled in the Marc Silber/Silber Reich Museum article in Guitar Player.
{back when Guitar Player was class}
I know that Howard knows Marc, and Ive often wondered if Howard was inspired by Interdonati's work,
& Ive posed the question before in a thread, but mabye Howard didnt see it, perhaps my question was too imprudent .
Regardless I really admire this style of instrument which is old as the hills as they say...
I really would be thrilled to the gills if Mr Klepper {or someone else who has built one of this style}
would enllighten us somewhat...
Your right Hesh his mastery is most admirable and we are blessed to have talent of his calibre here at the OLF.
Cheers
Charliewood

The pictures I initially saw


beautiful!!!
Cheers
Charliewood

Looks like a weissey style wanna-be. Alan. I know, I'm nuts!

Whoaa, that's pretty!

Hasn't Wade done a join like this too?

[QUOTE=CarltonM] Hasn't Wade done a join like this too?[/QUOTE]
Nope, I was remembering one of his smooth-looking cutaways. However, if you do that on both sides...

I tend to like the way that the foot is smaller on the Interdonati, but there are so many awesome things about Interdonati instruments....its mindblowing - I suppose you can say the same thing about a Klepper though too!
I cant believe that only a handful of instruments survive from this Interdonati fellow, he built in the NYC area as well so you think he would have been better known.
And what a dark legacy the man has,,, his surviving family refuses to talk about him to this day!!!!
A real mystery thats for sure - Id kill to have one of his instruments.
Cheers
Charliewood

Amazing instruments!
It's a nice integrated, hansom look.
If I could, I'd make a copy of an Interdonati and send it to Charliewood just so he will not kill anyone.

Carlton, I appreciate the association with this fine craftsmanship if not just for a fleeting moment.

Something to work toward for sure!

Wade

_________________
Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com

[QUOTE=Wade S.]Carlton, I appreciate the association with this fine craftsmanship if not just for a fleeting moment. [/QUOTE]
Hey, you're doing some unique and beautiful lutherie. I submit your current "Gabe" project as exhibit one!

So, Wade, I don't want to pick on you here, but I think you could still help Charlie (and the rest of us!) out. The cutaway side of your Z1SJ, with a bit less radical slope, would fit right in with this style of neck/sides join. If you were going to do this on both sides, how would you go about it?

No, no, Wade. He said he'd kill TO have one. So long as he doesn't have one we're safe.

Sorry, I never looked in at this thread until Charlie emailed me today. I thought someone was posting a photo-essay about how he makes slope shouldered dreads or something like that.

Not a lot to say, really, and I don't have process photos. Speaking of process, someone mentioned that there are standard methods that get documented here. To me this is the wrong way to think about lutherie, unless your goal is to reproduce not only the instruments that have been made before, but also the methods. That way of thinking stifles innovation. I know that Tony K approaches the work the way I do: I think of something that seems as if it ought to work, and then I try it. If I can find out how someone else did it, I look at that, but I don't necessarily repeat the method. There are no "standard' methods, really. Just ways that have worked for someone. I understand that a lot of people want to work from plans and find out what the popular methods are. It's simpler and safer that way. But if you want to start thinking about creative building, then I think it's time to stop thinking that there are standard ways to do things, and start trusting your own sense of how it works.

Anyway, I call these recurved sides. I saw the Interdonati long before I did them, so it probably influenced me, but I wasn't actually thinking of it at the time. I was thinking of the members of the viol family, that have their sides recurved like this. They were commonplace in the Renaissance, but got pushed aside as the members of the violin family became the standard. The bass viol survives, though. Part of my thinking was about ways to strengthen and rigidify the upper bout, so as to delay or prevent the need for neck resets.

I bend the recurves by hand on a pipe style bender, after doing the sides in a Fox bender. But they could be done more easily and more uniformly with a Fox style cutaway bender. I've just never bothered setting one up. It's a tight curve and hard to bend. Any guitar I do like this has double sides, which makes the bending easier, since each side is only about 1/16". I laminate with clamps and cauls around a form of stacked plywood. That forces the curve into its final shape if the bend wasn't quite right. I use a more-or-less circular curve in the recurve, and an oscillating spindle sander to do the shape in the head block after I rough bandsaw it. I clamp the sides (already laminated) to the block with a one piece caul for both shoulders, and glue with epoxy. The caul needs to be a good fit. I bandsaw, rasp, and file it. Very low tech.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I'm glad you came by to set us straight Howard!
What you have described sounds familiar to what I have done to make a contoured cutaway fit to the heal.
Although it must still be a daunting task with some of your multi-layered sides etc.
I use a small bending blanket draped over a pipe to do all my bending. I have yet to make a form. I just like to "feel" the bend happen I guess.
I also make a mockup block of the angle I want the side to be and after bending the angle into the side, I clamp it down to dry over night. I also use epoxy to glue any side to block joint.
I had not thought about laminated sides though. 1/16th sure would be easyer to bend!
Thanks,
Wade

_________________
Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com

Thanks Howard, recurved sides, OK!
that sounds like a much better name for this technology.
Im pleased that someone who has built these has chimed in - while not the most difficult thing in the world, it sounds as though there are a few steps to the way you do it Howard,
its all helpful as you say, to know how someone else does it.... before you figure on hoow to do it yourself
My creative process with guitars has only just begun, and Im sure even the most accomplished luthiers learn to do it one way, before they do it another
and make thier departure into other avenues of luthiery,    yet unknown,
or waiting to be rediscovered.
Cheers
Charliewood

Thanks Wade- for your input - its all becoming clearer now. I would have included you in the above but your response wasnt there when I was typing my first reply!
Cheers
Charliewood

Wade, I use Titebond for the tailblock to side joint and for a standard headblock. Epoxy with the recurves because it gives me a little insurance if the fit isn't 100%.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Ahha .. no hidden dovetails, but doubled sides, glued together .. nice thinking Howard.

Thinking for ones self in creating instruments (or anything for that matter) is a good thing ... I have one student who whenever I am giving thoughts or ideas to, or even to one of the other students who happens to be in the shop, will almost always come out with a "fender doesnt do it that way, or gibson or PRS - you get the idea. I ususally respond with "I am not making a fender/gibson/prs/martin - or "my name aint fender is it ??".
I tell him I only need to steal enough to get me over the hump and back to the vision of what I am trying to do .. after that, there are no rules ... in fact, I make them, its my shop !!!

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I'm with you Howard, Thanks.
I would use the epoxy only with the block to side joints that were not smooth connections. There could be an air space and epoxy "fills" it in better.
I had quite a few of those with my last build.

Both upper bout side blocks and the conture side of the head block were epoxied.

Wade

_________________
Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com