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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:38 pm 
You know, I've done a little figuring after this last build, and I've come to the conclusion that it just doesn't make sense to finish my guitars. I know this has been teh source of a few hot threads and my intention is not to stir the pot, It's just my view of teh topic has taken a different direction. I've listened to all teh arguments about "you should know how to finish" and all teh other commetns about what makes a luthier or guitar builder--we all remember those.
My intent is to shed a littel light on an aspect I don't recall reading--and thats cost.
I spent quite a few $'s on materials to finish, from Z-poxy, to shellac, micromesh pads, sand papers of many grits beyond 220. It all added up. I don't want to even get into the amount of hours I have in it--this is a hobby, not a business for so I know I shouldn't use that a main factor, but, this guitar would have been finished long ago by a pro and not for much more money that I have in the current finish. I surely would have been a nicer job, and only haveiong to sand to 220 and ship it off would be very relaxing.
Don't take this the wrong way, I am glad I expereinced the finish process, I got that under my belt and it looks OK to me and I'm pretty picky. I jsut doesn't seem to make sense to spend the amount of money and time to have less quality.
I do believe this is my last finish.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:04 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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It's purely a personal decision...one shouldn't feel guilty going either way. I personally like to do all of the operations myself. I'm never in a hurry to meet a deadline so it's all fun testing my skills and learning new ones. Some personally like to farm out many of the operations that they prefer not to do. It's no more complicated than that.

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Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:39 pm 
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For some people, it's about the journey rather than the destination. It's more of a philosophical question that we must each think about and come to a conclusion about which way works best for us. There's not necessarily a right or wrong way to go.

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Only badly."


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:41 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:50 pm
Posts: 2711
Location: Victoria, BC
First name: John
Last Name: Abercrombie
Status: Amateur
If you are just building as a hobby, it makes no difference at all which (or how many) operations are farmed out- whatever works for you.
With all the solvent issues, etc involved in finishing, it would seem to be a prime candidate for contracting out. For me the expense makes it a non-starter ($400 US + 2-way shipping) but if you have a good finisher nearby at reasonable cost, it makes sense.
However, if you are advertising your guitars for sale as 'handmade by...' you enter another area entirely. Anything done off-site or contracted out should be stated, I think. This doesn't seem to bother a lot of commercial builders who apparently regard CNC as 'handmade'! ("My hand unwrapped the package of necks when they arrived' 'My hand pushed the button and wrote the code...??')
I had a laugh a few days ago when I visited the website of a high-end guitar 'factory' which prominently features a set of steel-hooped Japanese mortising chisels (not for instrument use anyway) on the homepage. Lotsa text about traditional and handmade but the guitars are CNC'd from end to end.

Cheers

John


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:20 pm 
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Mahogany
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Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:18 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Australia
When I get into a hobby, I tend to want to do everything. Sometimes it doesn't work out so well, and oftentimes it's very time consuming, but it's all a learning experience.

Another of my hobbies is homebrewing. Many people are happy brewing from a tin of goo (to use the technical term) and make beer they are happy with. I brew using the all grain, or full mash, method because I like being involved in the process. I even built my brewing fridge's digital thermometer and thermostat from scratch.

At this stage I want to do everything in my build, from making the jigs to the finishing (FP first up! After watching Robert O'Briens finishing DVD it looks so easy to do. And not bad for you or the environment). But, after a few I may decide that I want to get premade necks or whatever.

I figure, you should only get into a hobby just as far as is comfortable and rewarding for you personally. Anything else is just a waste of your precious time, and takes the enjoyment right out of what should be fun.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:10 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:03 am
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Location: Toronto, Canada
I even read an article (I think in AG but I can't remember) about a guy who was building and not applying finish. He seemed to like the idea of focusing in on the sound not the aesthetics. He wanted to try different bracing patterns, woods, body styles and wouldn't have the time to build them all if he spent time on the finishing process. I can see that point of view too.

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"All my favourite singers can't sing."


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:24 am 
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Koa
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Location: PA, United States
I've become pretty good at my own nitro & waterbourne finishes, but am considering subbing out. $350 - $400 is a lot of money though. But so is the time, energy, & resources to do it in-house.

WHere I now live, Nitro is out of the question with neighbors close by. Waterbourne (KTM-9)is a viable alternative to do in house. It CAN be brushed on with a sponge brush. (I have 2 hvlp's so I wouldn't use the brush route, unless I couldn't spray. (Say in the winter where I'd have to do it in the basement.) White powder gets everywhere. Waterbourne is not as nice a finish, IMO.

I have finished probably 10 guitars using spray or hvlp spray. so that's about 120 coats. It's not worth the health risk to do nitro where I live. I did ktm-9 in an enclosed patio, but there was powder everywhere. I think I may farm out a finish when I have extra $. I was on the phone with Larry Presnall when he received his first one back from the finish shop. He was extremely pleased.

So, to sum it up, like everything else, we do what is practical.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:33 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Location: Jones, OK
I just think that you need to be flexible. The guitar I am currently working on will have a neck from John Watkins and will get a finish from either Tony F. or Addam S.

My last one, by comparison, needed a custom neck profile and I did the nitro finish myself. The customer wanted a specific feel to the back of the neck and described it to me the best he could. Then I made some templates and tried to carve it to his satisfaction.

Is there more satisfaction in doing the whole thing myself and not involving anyone else in the process? Sure there is. I even enjoy carving necks, I find it very relaxing. But, I absolutely hate the finishing process. I can do it, I've even had folks call me up after looking at my website and ask me to do their finishes. But it seems to me to be a complete waste of my time. Folks like Tony and Addam can do it soooo much better and faster that I can.

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Rector Guitars


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:03 am 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:53 am
Posts: 194
Location: United States
Terry,
I use the Target USL on my guitars and I like it a lot. I can see a difference between the USL and Nitro but it isn't huge and I don't want to work with nitro so waterbased it is. I think the USL is much better looking than the KTM-9, much less blue. Good luck!

Blake


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:08 am 
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[QUOTE=Don Williams] For some people, it's about the journey rather than the destination. It's more of a philosophical question that we must each think about and come to a conclusion about which way works best for us. There's not necessarily a right or wrong way to go.[/QUOTE]

I think Don should be promoted to "wise man" as well!    No, I mean it! I think his point is at the heart of the matter. I don't think it so is not so much about cost and quality; most builders here probably can't produce a finish as nice as the guys who do it for a living, all day long (I know I can't). To produce even a pretty good finish takes a lot of time and fussing, and if your time is worth anything that means it is not terribly economical either. So why do it? Same reason we build guitars I guess, which is different for each person.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:29 am 
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Mahogany
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:35 am
Posts: 66
Location: United States
I did my own cost analysis on finishing vs. quality and just slapped a few coats of store bought amber shellac (diluted) on #2 and strung her up. Several guitarists made some nice comments about the "vintage" look!

Until I build a guitar that sounds good there is no reason to put a shine on it.

I think most builders would describe their instruments as custom made. I never claim my guitars are "handmade", they are "home made".

Kurt


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:46 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:46 am
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Location: Branson, MO
First name: stan
Last Name: thomison
City: branson
State: mo
Zip/Postal Code: 65616
Country: united states
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
My thought for what worth is trying to equate things like growing trees, and making the hardware etc. as an argument just doens't fly. It to me is comparing the apples and oranges thing. No one does that except for the big guys. Just not a rational argument. At best an excuse.

There maybe legitimate reasons some do the farming out of things, the individaul person knows there own reason, but I would bet they are few. I guess if a hobby and not wanting to make the parts, then buying all the stuff is ok.

To me though, if building for fun and hobby do it all and learn the whole process. To me, that would be part of the hobby, learning how to do it all and doing so. If want to buy and build kits, that is fine also for the hobbiest. If one day wanting to change from a hobby and sell guitars,and be a "pro", better be able to do it all and then do it a bunch from scratch. That is how you build a reputation as a pro. Designing, building the prototypes, etc.

Although almost all pro's have models, and therefore, standard parts they may farm out. That is however, is after many years and guitars of doing it all. That is because they have 20 or more guitars going out a year and it becomes a speed and expense thing. Doing some of the things takes time they can be doing something else. They are building a batch or have bunch of orders. I do know though, that many times orders come into shops and have to be made from scratch. It would cost more and take more time to sub those few parts out, than to build them, so better be able to do it.

I just don't understand the "I just don't like doing that part so will sub it out" argument. I don't like doing some things at all, but when doing somehting, one has to do things they don't like. It is part f the process.

I on purpose didn't put finish in this, although it could be. Building spray booth can be expensive, there can be health issues, shop size etc. are considerations. Particularly for hobby builders. I doubt there are but only a few pro's who haven't done finsih on a bunch of guitars and who can't do finish or don't do there own. Price of subbing out would cut into profit or make the price higher. Look at number if doing say 10 guitars at $400 a guitar plus shipping, over 4k a year, more built, more money.   Time getting on a finisher's schedule is also a consideration. Hobby can be expensive, but time and money may not be a consideration, so doesn't matter much.

All that said,if folks want to sub alot of the work out and the expense of that, and build that way is up to them. If want to be pro someday though better learn how to do it all. Once have it all down, done everything a bunch and after many guitars, and then have lots of orders, and need to sub out things then another story.

I know I out of the main stream in this area.



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:44 am 
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Koa
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Location: PA, United States
How does Tony or Addam handle warranty on their finishes?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:47 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Location: Canada
Say,... how about those Ottawa Senators, eh?

The weather's just brutal around here lately. -30's with the wind!

Whooooeeeeee , now THAT'S cold!!!!


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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:49 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:50 pm
Posts: 2711
Location: Victoria, BC
First name: John
Last Name: Abercrombie
Status: Amateur
Stan-
You are not out of the mainstream at all with your comments.
The critical issue in my opinion is being open about what you have made, and what others have done.
I just can't imagine paying others to do large chunks of the work, then presenting the result as something I've made.
"Nice guitar! You made it yourself?"
"Yup!"
Q:"How did you get the finish so shiny?"
A: "I paid somebody else to do it- not sure how he did it."
Q:" How did you shape the neck? It must be tricky!"
A:" I paid somebody else to do it."
Q: "How did you bend the sides without breaking them?"
A: " I paid somebody else to do it."
etc etc

That said, I am using pre-slotted fingerboards right now since I got a deal on a bunch - cheaper than the cost of blanks. So we all make some compromises.

I also noticed in the book 'Clapton's Guitar' that Wayne Henderson sends out his guitars for finishing. If 'God's guitarmaker' can do it, I guess it's OK for the rest of us.

John


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:53 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:46 am
Posts: 1315
Location: Branson, MO
First name: stan
Last Name: thomison
City: branson
State: mo
Zip/Postal Code: 65616
Country: united states
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
All the above.

I don't care what a person or builder does or what they call building. They can choose and do what they want. I was just commenting on the price pro's have to consider, as opposed to hobbiest. Pros sub out, but for different reasons than those of a hobby.

If one wants to build kits great, if one wants to build advanced kits fine, if one wants to build from scratch fine. If hobbiest want to sub out some or all of it, there choiced and won't matter, except won't get benefit of learning and doing it all (again taking finish for reason out of it)

My comment to the hardware as an excuse, was limited to that.

I thought was clear about understanding shop limitatiions and such. If not sorry. I was trying to note the difference between pro and hobby, with cost, and other consideration. and what they can do and do in the shop. Limitations on shop space for a pro won't work as an excuse.

I am new here, and not have the experience to determine what anyone does or choices they make. Just was an opinion. Do what you want, doesn't matter to me.




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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:03 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Location: Hughenden Valley, England
This is an old chestnut. I think Hesh is right - it's about choice and judgement of each builder. And if you are selling the instrument it's about value add, respect for the builders judgement and skills and the customers perception of this.

There are so many builders to choose from that if the customer isn't happy they can go buy somewhere else. If they want as close as possible to "hand built" then they can ask all the right questions of the builder up front. I think it comes down to looks, feel, sound playability and mojo (or in some cases "collectability" and "investment potential"). If Wayne Henderson bought kit guitar parts and in putting them together added so much mojo that Clapton and others of his ilk were queueing up to buy the finished guitar then so would everyone else be.

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De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:25 am 
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Koa
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Location: Denver, Colorado
I think it's about choice and judgement of each builder too, but I also
agree that you should be up front about what is CNC'd and farmed out.
Unless you make no claims to "handmade-ness". If you promote your
instruments as "custom" then CNC away. If you have your bridges, necks,
fretboards, etc. CNC'd though, then I don't think you can call it a
"handmade" guitar. Just my opinion. Again, I don't think there's anything
wrong with CNCing and farming out (although I prefer to do it all myself
at this point), I just think it matters that your promotion is in line with
your practices.

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:40 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Location: Canada
I think we're arguing scemantics here...

Possibly, 'Hand-crafted' vs. 'Custom'???

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:42 am 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:35 am
Posts: 66
Location: United States
Then there's Denny Zager who has the whole guitar made in Korea and just does the setup.

http://www.zagerguitar.com/index.php?event=public.store.guit ars.list



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