Official Luthiers Forum!

I buy my tuners, fretwire, and trussrods. Everything else is my work. That's just the way that I want to do it. I guess I enjoy the ride more than the destination.
I've built a couple of kits, and they made fine guitars. I used them for learning tools, but I'm not a kit builder, I'm a guitarbuilder.
I know a fellow who claims to be a luthier. He has his guitars built in a factory overseas. They build to his spec. inlay his logo on the headstock and install his label. I know that no one here goes to that extreme, but it is being done.
Bottom line...it's your guitar, do what you want, and farm out what you want.

Best regards,

Al

I've personally built over 150 guitars with my name on them in the past 10 years, and hundreds more with someone elses name on it. I did the first 80 or so guitars finish myself (both nitro, urethane, waterborne, and poly.). I have choosen not to do the finish anymore due to a number of factors ranging from the economical standpoint, OSHA compliance, to a health factor. If someone thinks my guitars are not handmade...well personally I don't really care what they think, and I'm sure not hurting for business. I don't advertise on my website that I subcontract my finishes, but I will readily tell anyone who asks. In fact I've never had a single customer gripe that I sub out my finishes. Because Tony F. does a better job than I do on that, as well as he is faster than me. So in the end the customer gets the product faster, and better.

I can certinally understand the desire of people who want to do thier own finishes, and that is cool. You guys can build anyway you darn well please. It's, for sure, no skin off my back, and you won't be hearing me tell you that your guitar is not handmade, because I'm more concerned about what I'm doing rather than the route you take to get to your destination.

The whole point is that if you enjoy the way you build guitars and you get satsifaction out of it, then by golly you've built your guitars exactly the way they should be made. We are talking about a craft where the reason is to bring music, and joy, and creativity into the world. We shouldn't be so concerned/jugemental with how someone else acomplishes that. Get back to building the way you want to build and enjoy the process...however it is you do it.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Hear! Hear! John, ... very well said!?

Now how about those Maple Leafs!?

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Hmm , it seems like this strikes a chord with some of us forum members. That’s ok because we are all different and have different viewpoints and skills. That’s why we share on this forum. There is not always a right or wrong just different ways of accomplishing the same goals.

My 2 cents worth of opinion is that I don’t think it matters on any of the items discussed in previous threads. My guess is that you could build a guitar axe, chisel, and a plane. You could cut the tree and then shape into an instrument but that would be foolish. We learn to use tools to complete our tasks. Sometimes the tools we use are other people to accomplish tasks for us. I have no problem with that since we do that all our lives for many things. CNC, prebent sides, slotted fretboards, and finishing are all examples of us using the tools at our disposal.

If I had every piece of an instrument made and finished for me and I slapped it together it would sound like a guitar. Not necessarily great but it would still function. However, in the skilled hands of a luthier the same pieces treated and massaged correctly would turn out a good sounding instrument. It’s the quality of the finished product as a whole that becomes more than the some of its parts. Thus the skill of craftsman is shown in the hand made work. I see the hand made as being the application of lutherie skills to produce a better than average instrument.

Sorry to be long but wanted to add my point of view.

Philip

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aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

I think maybe the term "handmade" is thrown about to easy. Maybe "custom built" however that gets done or some other term can be thought of.

One can build all of it and use their own cnc, buy certain parts, or do every thing scratch, and it is still custom. It is of their design with size, appointments, bracing whatever. Most use the newer fox style benders and such (but have great knowledge and do use hand tools),use power tools, and it is still custom and my opinion "handmade" guitar. I pesonally have no problems in use of any of those things. Alot of if not most of the work still turns on "hands on work" in the build.

It is right that it is playability, mojo and whatever is what the player wants. I bet though if paying the money of a custom built, they don't want a kit. Most players or collectors are not going to pay a custom builder the larger amounts of money for a kit. Hell if that was the case, all of the kits that could be built right and then sold as custom, would be out there. Think that would fly? Each of us will have our own thoughts I guess aout that. Mine is NO WAY!!! This isn't at all a slam on kits. I think they are a great idea for the hobbiest and maybe first time builder. There are really nice guitars out there that are kits. I think kits are also though when all or most the parts are pre made, and then just assembled even if from different sources. I am not saying if a person has fretboard made, or a bridge or buys a pre made neck it isa kit. However, if all those parts are pre made, the top and back sanded and cut and maybe ribs set up, rosette done, then it is a kit. A sourced kit, but a kit none the less.

Build a bunch of kits, buy a booth at Healdsburg, or other shows and set them on a table, in competition with the custome builder's. Want a b*** kicking in building, selling and reputation? That is sure to get it, not physically, but hanging head down low..

This thread was about and cost analysis. The question then has to be then, what is your level and what doing it for. There are just big differences in what is a pro builder, a hobbiest or one wanting to go pro. So then there has to be a difference in cost analysis of building. That was what I meant from the beginning of comparing apples and oranges. It was what meant by an exuse. Pro's and in my opinion only, can't use the excuse I don't know how to do that, I don't want to do that or have the room to do that. Hobbiest do. Pro's have reasons may or may not do things or get things pre made, but those are for expressed reasons of economics or health or whatever.

Pro's have done many builds, and built a reputation so that they have a steady client base, whether dealers, custom builds for players, collectors or someone just wants a custom guitar and can afford it. They have built enough so when a problem comes (which they will and many, many of them)they know what to do as a work around, fix or whatever, so the build is done right and what is expected from customer. If they don't, they will as many have fail in a few years. This is a very competive business, with lots of builder now there and more coming up, with limited customers. Better be able to do it all, and right. They for years did the whole thing start to finish to get that knowledge and make their name. Maybe didn't like certain parts or want to do it, but money, profit and other things had to be considered. Now those that have stood the test of time Common sense says get some things subbed out for many reasons. Again each will have for their own reasons make decisions on what they build scratch or sub out, but they are very thought out and expressed reasons.

We carve all our neck, but have built jigs and fixtures for that process, the finish is done in the shop. We get one off things and therefore have to make the fretboards due to odd scale or building a bass etc. We do it all for most part by hand and low tech tools (cnc and those things) Of course use power tools, and doing so doesn't mean not custom or handbuilt. Some things are subbed out, but again for very expressed reasons of cost, delivery etc..

A hobbiest just doesn't have to concern themselves with those things. They can do it all or get all of it made for them and then assemble it. They can get certain parts made for a build, that is up to them, as they have no other considerations other than what they can afford or want to do. Just my opinion is it is beneficial for anyone to learn the whole process. But how much a person wants to do or afford to do is up to them. They are building for themselves, friends, relatives etc..so do it way want.

I know some of you have built several guitars as hobbiest and now have things subbed out. You have done and know how to do those things, but for whatever reason you have, you choose to sub things out. Fine and dandy. You have your reasons for doing so.

All I was getting to is if want to go pro someday, then you will have all the considerations that other pro have. Customer's will ask questions or want somthing off the wall and you better be able to do it, and not have expense, time or other things of having it done. Again just difference of hobbiest, pro or trying to get there.

My boss is really good and very patient with letting   me build my own stuff when not doing things for him. I just get more benefit in doing his stuff, his way and learning, so that is my direction now. I will and do buy some things, but do so as they are already done, and really really good price. I am very much concentrating on doing the jig, molds etc..

Subbing out goes back many years in lutherie: Dante mentioned it in the 'Purgatorio', iirc. It was an old practice even then.

Some years back somebody suggested 'individually made' as the appropriate label for something that was produced by a single luthier, but with the use of power tools and so on. I can think of people using a CNC that would apply to, and one of them even built his own CNC! We need a similar sort of designation for stuff made to one person's specs, at least as far as the 'important' parts go, but not necessarily _by_ that person. There may be a few things, like lacquer, that could be seen as 'commodities' in the same way that tuners and fret wire are. OTOH, designing your own briges, and subbing the cutting out to a CNC shop yeilds an individual product that is indistiguishable, once done, from the work of a more mundane wood butcher such as myself.

Perhaps 'Designer' would work? Enzio Ferrari didn't make all the parts of the cars that bear his name, but they're still 'Ferraris'. Nor, I think, should it matter whether all the steps are carried out in one place or in several, just so the designer gets things done the way he/she wants them. What would be important in a 'Designer Guitar' would be the concept behind it, and the extent to which that concept is realized. They would be clearly distinguished from the work of troglodytes like myself, who really _do_ like to do everything with our own ten thumbs (and a router). The designers would, presumably, make an effort to point out to the buyers the ways in which their instruments are superior, and preferable, to those made in factories, as well as the productions of us Luddites.

FWIW

Gosh miss the edit thing. we don't use cnc as that isn't low tech and i am not high tech enough to do those things at all

It seems that the 'reasonable expectation' of the customer has not been considered much in this discussion.
If you commissioned a painting in the 16th century, you probably understood that the backgrounds and some of the less 'important' parts of the painting might be done by students or apprentices in the master's workshop. Today, if you found that the painting you'd just bought from an active painter was partly done by his students at the local art college, you'd be outraged.

In the time I've been watching- the past 30 yrs or so- independent luthiers have worked hard (and long, for little pay in most cases) to get customers to understand the difference between a 'handmade' guitar and one produced in a factory. It seems that those efforts may be going to waste if nowadays it is (as a previous poster suggested) up to the customer to interrogate the luthier in detail about which steps will actually be done in the builder's workshop.
This all has a lot to do with tradition in specific crafts, no doubt. In the fiddle world, I believe it is quite common for luthiers to use partially-completed, factory-made bridges and carve them to their taste/spec. Most buyers of 'handmade' guitars would be surprised to find that the builder had not personally shaped the bridge from a raw blank.
So it is all about expectations and 'accepted practice' to my mind. Since luthierie has to a great extent moved away from the old guild/master/apprentice system of establishing and teaching 'accepted practice', I suppose that online forums and specialized publications will have to fill the void.

John

Boy oh boy, I think luthiers take this WAY more serious than anybody else. I can honestly say I've spent enough money buying guitars over the years to pay for several brand new cars, and I can say I (as well as every player I've ever met) could care less if the finish was subcontrcted or not. Same goes for if CNC was used or if neck was built by somebody else, etc. The real purpose of building an instrument is so somebody can make music. I guarentee if it sounds good, they won't care who sprayed the lacquer.

I just bought a fully braced top from John Mayes (the one from his advanced voicing dvd), and I can't wait to check it out. At first I'm going to use it as a guide as I build my first steel string, but then I guarentee I'll put it on a guitar. I even have a neck from Jim Olsen I'm going to use with it, and if anybody asks, heck yeah I'm gonna tell them where the top and neck came from. What label am I going to put inside the guitar? Who cares as long as it sounds good. My whole point is most players are looking for great sound no matter who put the widgets together. I don't think it helps or hinders guitar building, and as long as you're having fun building, who cares because people sure are having fun playing.

Cheers!

John

[QUOTE=John Elshaw] I just bought a fully braced top from John Mayes (the one from his advanced voicing dvd), and I can't wait to check it out. At first I'm going to use it as a guide as I build my first steel string, but then I guarentee I'll put it on a guitar.
John [/QUOTE]

LOL! I looked at that and thought exactly the same thing, "Gee, here's a top I could use as a guide for my building..."   Great minds, eh?

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Really, how 'bout those Canucks! But when it comes down to it, if you don't
like to do it, sub it out buuuuuut. Finishing is fun. If you own a
compressor, spray guns are cheap. Lacquer is cheap. $30 - $40 to finish a
guitar and another $10 for sandpaper. If you haven't done much finishing
start with a lower sheen because it's easier. They look great and you will
find out how easy and incredibly forgiving lacquer is to use. There is a lot of
time spent on sanding. I can't think of a better way to get intimate with your
soon to be strung up new baby. Your wood comes to life when finishing.
You want to let someone else have the pleasure of bringing it there? Not I.

Col. So your the one. I sent money, but John said he had just a moment earlier sold it. Should work well and great guitar

I feel your pain on the finishing question. I now live in SE Georgia which is not the best place to spray lacquer. We get 66+ inches of rain a year. Lots of heat and high humidity. ( Why did Bob Benedeto move down here? LOL) I have sprayed about 180 guitars and have done about 20 french polish finishes. It takes about as much time to finish the guitar as it does to build it.

I kind of like doing the finish work because I work with a lot of color finishes with my electrics. The finish work I do is an intergral part of the sound of my instruments. The finishes are very thin but have depth to them as well. I have decided to cut back on production to 10-12 guitars a year and plan on french polishing most of them depending on market acceptance. The guitars to be lacquered I guess will be farmed out.

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] I am really, really having a hard time with this thread but I am trying to be civil here.......

*snip*
John I really don't want to fight with you and I am feeling baited here too. I respect your opinions and right to same and I don't even care if you return the consideration. But I would ask you if you are aware that by clearly promoting the point of view that you do and have that out-sourced finishing, CNC parts, etc. is kit building is insulting to me and I suspect others?
[/QUOTE]
Hesh-
You are way too thin-skinned- my opinion only, no offense, etc etc
I never used the term 'kit-building' in any of my posts above.
You have made it very clear in numerous posts that you are a hobbyist, and have no plans to make guitars for sale.
You have also never tried to hide in any way the fact that you have a small fraction of the work in your instruments done by others-there is no deception involved.
I made it clear in my comments above that hobbyists (like me and you) could do what they liked; the issue of ethics and accepted practice (and deception) comes into play when a builder is selling his/her 'handmade/handcrafted' product and does not specify which parts are not 'handmade/handbuilt' in the builder's shop. The idea that it is the customer's responsibility to ferret out this information is disturbing.

I may be alone in my attitudes on this, but I do see a difference between a totally hand-built (no power tools) instrument by a single person and the product of a CNC factory. In between those extremes is a continuum, and each of us is picking his place between the extremes.

John

Why fly a kite when you can pop a pill? I mean really, let's be honest here, if you're not thicknessing your back and side sets with your fingernails then you're pretty much a complete fraud.

I build em. Tony finishes em. He is better than me at finishing and he is faster and he is cost effective. It frees me up to work quicker and to have the time to explore. I'm sure you all realize that time is the enemy.

Hesh
I wasn't even trying to get into what is handbuilt or by who. It doens't matter if a person subs or not that is personal decisions and each to their own.

I was only attempting to stay on the cost thing and the different considerations the pro shop may have from the hobby shop. Each pro shop has reasons they do or don't sub things. I don't think one has to make a laundry list of what they sub or don't as long as customer gets the guitar they are after. My only thing was again the difference in cost and what pro's have to consider in their pricing and shop. Hobby builders don't have those considerations.
On building the whole thing, I was only stating that it is good for someone to learn the whole process, pro or hobby. I understand limitations there in shop and other things.
I didn't mean to offend or comment doing a bad thing, just the condsiderations and differences. If did offend sorry. I have a bad tendency to be more blunt than others. Guess to many years as a cop and Marine.

This has been rehashed over and over here at the OLF and the arugment is pointless.
We will -- NEVER -- all agree on this topic.

Honslty, what gives anyone the right to claim carteblanche?

Do it your way and have fun doing it!....

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

There seems to be a lot of confusion on this subject and there ought not
be because it is very straightforward. So let me throw a monkey wrench
in here by stating a few facts.

The Webster's definition of handmade is as follows: made by hand or by a
hand process.

So according to the pure definition, Just about NOBODY can claim
their instruments are truly handmade from start to finish. Just about
NOBODY can claim their museum quality furniture is truly handmade.
Looks like that potter's wheel is electrically powered - BAM!!! - Otto
Heino, your work is no longer handmade.

The truth is that the above scenario doesn't make much sense to most of
the English speaking population. Otto's work is very well-known and
absolutely considered handmade by EVERYONE in the art world. Power
tools are ubiquitous among woodworkers and the VAST MAJORITY of the
population has absolutely no problems accepting that work as handmade.

For me, the whole point of using the term "handmade" is to signify that
my guitars aren't made in a factory. And in a very real sense, that should
also be a second definition of the word because our society now uses the
term as a valid synonym for "individually crafted" or "artisan made".

Quite honestly, I don't care at all about not adhereing to the very limiting
definition ascribed by old Webster...and guess what? 99.9% of the guitar
playing population won't either. So I will continue in my emblazoned use
of the term "handmade" for my guitars, despite my semantic illegitimacy.

By the way, if I'm not doing a French Polish, I have Addam Stark do a
lacquer finish for me

Peace Out,
Simon

I know a former luthier who believed in making everything for his instruments himself.
He even used his fathers corpse to make hide glue for a batch of 7-string guitars.

He claimed they sounded great in DEADDAD.

Ok, that was gross....sorry.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=lex_luthier] Why fly a kite when you can pop a pill? I mean really, let's be honest here, if you're not thicknessing your back and side sets with your fingernails then you're pretty much a complete fraud.

[/QUOTE]

   Ah, now that is sooo true! Touche, Lex!

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...