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Bolted Butt neck joint

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Irwin R

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:40 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:41 am
Posts: 130
Location: Canada

Is anyone using this technique. I know most of you may have seen Mario Proulx's article in the recent guitarmaker issue..man it looks so much easier than either the dovetail or bolt on M&T.

It seems that most folks here use he bolted M&T.

My only joint I've done so far was a bolted dovetail (Sergei De Jonge course)

On my second I'm really temped to just do a bolted butt. I have lots of time to decide...just looking for input...

Does it really mater or is it one of personal preference...Thanks so much

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Homeboy

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:56 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:53 am
Posts: 194
Location: United States

I use the butt joint with two bolts. I like that system quite a lot. It makes adjustments a breeze. What exactly do you want to know?

Blake

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Steve Kinnaird

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:40 pm

Contributing Member

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:45 pm
Posts: 4337
Location: United States

I'm with Blake. I also do a "bolted butt", though I cringe at that nomenclature.
I find that it is plenty strong, and oh-so-easy to do.

Steve

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http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

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Irwin R

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:18 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:41 am
Posts: 130
Location: Canada

Just curious Blake, why more don't use this joint. I'm thinking it is easier for adjustments, like you say. It appears from the few articles and discussions I've read , mainly with Mario and with Rick Davis, that it is no less strong than either a M&T or Dovetail. Some of the discussions get quite interesting.

I would think that you are showing more skill in perfecting a DT or M&T, but is it worth the extra work and time involved in perfecting those techniques, to say that your guitars have them. I don't mean to stand on anyone's toes, or sound rude but is there a reason other than say tradition and some higher respect you may gain in the guitar making community ? Once again, no intent to offend.

Steve sorry about the nomenclature..what is the proper terminology..

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JohnAbercrombie

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:21 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:50 pm
Posts: 2711
Location: Victoria, BC
First name: John
Last Name: Abercrombie
Status: Amateur

[QUOTE=Homeboy] I use the butt joint with two bolts. I like that system quite a lot. It makes adjustments a breeze. What exactly do you want to know?

Blake[/QUOTE]

Blake-
I've thought of using this system, but I was concerned that the heel would be larger than I wanted.
What's the minimum heel depth/thickness (ie dimension parallel to fingerboard) and width that will hold the inserts and still allow enough wood for safety?
Thanks
John

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crazymanmichael

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:12 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:16 am
Posts: 2244
Location: United States
First name: michael
Last Name: mcclain
City: pendleton
State: sc
Zip/Postal Code: 29670
Status: Professional

taylor used the bolted butt joint for 25 years or so. at first they ran into the traditional arguments but it was quite successful and inspired a whole host of innovations, inclusing the bolted butt. their heels were light and certainly not bulky or unsightly. go for it.

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Joel

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:27 pm

Mahogany

Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:18 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Australia

I haven't heard of this style of neck attachment before. Is there and online version of Mario's article? I'd love to read it.

I'm assuming that the body of the guitar doesn't get routed for any kind of pocket (M&T or dovetail) and the neck is just butted up to the body, no intrusion of the neck into the body at all? Sounds similar to the new Cumpiano M&T bolt job without the M&T, am I on the right track?

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If God had wanted us to drink beer, he would have given us stomaches.

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Colin S

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:14 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:29 am
Posts: 3840
Location: England

Yes I just do a bolted butt joint on my guitars, with a slight variation. I also use a floating fingerboard on a neck extension, this is not bolted down or glued to the top. The extension is a continuation of the neck wood rather than an addition.

There's a photo tutorial on how I make the neck here.

Neck

Colin

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Homeboy

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:25 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:53 am
Posts: 194
Location: United States

John,
The heel does seem to be larger on my guitars than on ones with a dovetial or mortise and tenon. I put a dowel into the heel to help hold the bolt inserts (so they are not just in end-grain), so I think that is what makes my heels a little larger. This seems to be an aesthetic choice to me.

Looking at the bottom of the heel , or heelcap, mine has to be at least 5/8 to 3/4 of an inch long and at least 5/8 inch wide to avoid carving into the dowel which is a 1/2 inch dowel.

At Roberto-Venn they taught us not to use a dowel and just put the inserts into the end-grain of the neck. My guitar from there is over 5 years old with no problems, but I like th added security of having the dowel in the heel. If you choose not to use a dowel you could get away with a fairly small heel.

I think people tend to use whatever neck joint they were taught or fist learned. I learned this way and it works for me. Some people make arguments about the sonic merits of different joints but I dont know if I can tell the difference, or what it would even be. (Not trying to start any trouble with this)

The bolt on method is a proven method for attaching the neck which seems to be more and more accepted these days. When I went to the OLF get together at Sylvan Wells' shop he had a bolt on method that included bolting on the fingerboard like a Taylor guitar so that there is no glue in the joint. Very cool method that he was willing to share (Thanks). I glue my fingerboard extension down to the top and that is the only glue in my method.

Blake

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Ron Belanger

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:04 am

Contributing Member

Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:44 am
Posts: 319
Location: Canada
First name: Ron
Last Name: Belanger
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro

I too use a butt joint with no dowel. I have been putting the LMI brass inserts in the heel. However, I put the insert in before I carve the heel, so they don't split. I will be moving to a dowel insert and a hanger bolt similar to what Mario is doing. Makes more sense to me. In my first few instruments I used a M&T, but moved away from it for the ease of adjusting a butt joint.

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Irwin R

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:45 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:41 am
Posts: 130
Location: Canada

thanks Guys .

Joel here isa good picture of thre joint on the joint

The article can be found here

http://www.liutaiomottola.com/construction/Bolton.htm

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Irwin R

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:47 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:41 am
Posts: 130
Location: Canada

Here is a little bigger photo..sorry about the atrocious spelling on that last post

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Irwin R

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:48 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:41 am
Posts: 130
Location: Canada

"bigger"...oh yeah ..arggh!! I give up...Sorry for wasting space..

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JohnAbercrombie

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:01 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:50 pm
Posts: 2711
Location: Victoria, BC
First name: John
Last Name: Abercrombie
Status: Amateur

Thanks for the details.
Cheers

John

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Steve Kinnaird

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:00 am

Contributing Member

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:45 pm
Posts: 4337
Location: United States

Again, I'm on the same page with Blake.
I use a dowel in my heel, for two reasons:
1) I like the added stability that a dowel gives the heel
2) If the neck has a center lamination of something hard like rosewood, bloodwood, etc., I like the idea of biting into the dowell, and not the hard stuff. I use a mahogany 1/2" dowel, and run the grain (though probably not critical) in the same direction as the neck. I once tried putting one of those inserts into rosewood, and stopped when the cracking sound began.

I don't think the dowel or inserts adversely affect the shape of the heel, just like Michael stated.

Here's a pic of a guitar using this system. It's not the best shot, but perhaps you get the idea.

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

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old man

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:21 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:13 am
Posts: 3270
Location: United States

I use m/t bolt on. I've seen and built too much furniture.
The straight butt, I'm sure is strong enough, but it isn't nearly as strong as m/t or dovetail and it could creep laterally. I doubt it would ever be a problem, but I don't find it difficult to make a mortise and tenon, and, to me, that is a detail that says better quality.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

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Irwin R

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:15 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:41 am
Posts: 130
Location: Canada

An interesting statement in the article says

A note about the threaded inserts. There are many different types of threaded inserts. The ones specified above are self tapping inserts intended for use with metal. When driven into the end grain of the neck heel they will thread their way in, resulting in a strong and permanent insert installation. Do not substitute nay other inserts here! Inserts made for wood typically are designed for use with MDF or particleboard. When used in the end grain of hardwood this type of insert will simply strip out the hole, resulting in a weakly installed insert that is almost guaranteed to pull out once the instrument is strung up. I have tried at least half a dozen wood inserts and none of them are suitable for this application. A number of folks I know have had bad experiences with this type of neck joint and have given up trying to use them, but their troubles always came down to using the wrong type of insert. Be forewarned!

Do you folks find this. I was looking at buying some from Lee valley and these would appear to be the type the article states will not work well...or..is this OK if they are wicked with CA after inserted?

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Alain Desforges

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:23 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:46 am
Posts: 2227
Location: Canada

I will be using a straight but joint on my current project.(no.3) Just about to do the inserts (hopefully tonight). I tried a regular M&T on the two first guitars I build.

I decided I'd give it a try this time around. I'm sure it will be strong enough.

I'll let you know how it turns out (as if I wouldn't!)

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Irwin R

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:25 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:41 am
Posts: 130
Location: Canada

These are what I was looking at using....

Flanged Insert Nuts

With the same features as the plain insert nuts, these have a thin flange and are used for a flush fit — the flange prevents oversinking.
Die-cast from a zinc alloy. Require a 6mm hex key. Pre-drill size will vary from 8.7mm to 9.5mm, depending on the nut size and the material thickness and density.
All pricing is per piece, with additional discounts for multiple quantities of the same product.

Flanged Insert Nuts

L

L1

d1

d2

d3

1+

10+

100+

500+

00N10.13

13mm

3.4mm

12.5mm

11.7mm

7.8mm

$0.16

$0.13

$0.11

$0.10

00N10.20

20mm

3.4mm

12.5mm

12mm

7.5mm

$0.20

$0.16

$0.14

$0.12

00N10.25

25mm

4mm

12.5mm

11.9mm

8mm

$0.26

$0.21

$0.18

$0.16

00M30.23

6mm Hex Key

$0.70

Home Woodworking Gardening Hardware Gifts

(1)
© Copyright 1998 to 2007 by Lee Valley Tools Ltd. and Veritas®Tools Inc. All rights reserved.
Regular-Head Bolts

With ample head size for most joints, these are most applicable for corner joints in narrow stock or anywhere else where head proportion in relation to stock width is critical.

These require a 4mm hex key. 13mm head diameter. Made of steel and finished in bronze.

All pricing is per piece, with additional discounts for multiple quantities of the same product.

Regular-Head Bolts

	L	L1	1+	10+	100+	500+
00N16.30	30mm	20mm	$0.18	$0.14	$0.12	$0.11
00N16.40	40mm	30mm	$0.20	$0.16	$0.14	$0.12
00N16.50	50mm	30mm	$0.20	$0.16	$0.14	$0.12
00N16.70	70mm	40mm	$0.24	$0.19	$0.17	$0.15
00M30.21	4mm Hex Key		$0.50

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JohnAbercrombie

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:25 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:50 pm
Posts: 2711
Location: Victoria, BC
First name: John
Last Name: Abercrombie
Status: Amateur

Irwin-
Good question- I'll be interested to see the responses you get. I was about to post the same query a while ago but the OLF was temporarily unavailable so I lost the post text.

I've thought about this and when I use inserts (not there yet) I plan to set them in epoxy, in an 'oversized' hole. Common in boatbuilding, and it works. You do have to be very careful to have a well-greased bolt in the insert to keep the threads clean, though.

For now, I'm using the M&T and 'slug' inserts .

Cheers

John

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TonyKarol

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:38 am

Contributing Member

Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:51 am
Posts: 3786
Location: Canada

That type of insert can only work well if you can install it from the far side of where the bolt is, ie, just like in the picture, where when the bolt is tightened, it forces to insert towards it against the taper - if you use these in a neck, which I would never do, you are asking for them to pull out because the taper is now working with you instead of against you, where it has all its holding strength. I get mine at home depot, they are steel, untapered, 10mm deep, 1/4-20 thread, just like LMIs. Bolts are from Lee Valley, cheapest place I know of. Unless you bottom out the bolt in the insert, thus using the bolt as a lever, they wont pull out under normal use. Havent had any fail yet. I also CA them in once they have been driven in by hand, using a long bolt in the drill press to keep them straight. Use a 3/8 forstner to drill the hole (thats the size for the insert core, less the threaded part). Oh and yes, all my necks are flush butt joint, glued FBs.

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www.karol-guitars.com
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LuthierSupplier

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:47 am

Koa

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:41 pm
Posts: 975
Location: United States
First name: Tracy
Last Name: Leveque
City: Denver
State: CO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

I've used butt jointed bolt on necks on my last 2 instruments, and think it is much easier, and just as stable. I glue down my fretboard extension, so maybe that helps. I use a 3/8" maple dowel glued into the end grain, then insert the bolt insert into that. My bolt inserts are 1/2" in length, and my heel is about 3/4" at the smallest area. I also create a small indention in the area that contacts the body, so only 1/8" of the edges of the heel contact the body. This makes the floss trick a piece of case. Good luck with it, I'm sure you will like it.
Tracy

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Tracy
http://www.luthiersuppliers.com

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Mattia Valente

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:26 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:25 pm
Posts: 2749
Location: Netherlands

Interesting...I've used both kinds, but the tapered ones pictured there are working just fine (destruction tested one, once). I know Mario used to use ones like that; what type is described in the article? The ones a la LMI?

I'll be going with barrel nuts for the next few (trying an adjustable neck joint), but I've still got a good number of those as well..

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Dave Rector

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:46 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:07 am
Posts: 2281
Location: Jones, OK

I use inserts that look a lot like the ones in the above post, only without the taper. Got mine the same place as Tony, Home Depot.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

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