Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=charliewood]
I agree hesh I wouldnt want anyone to think that the opposition is to such generic faith phrases as "God Bless You", or "Ill pray for you". [/QUOTE]

Charlie, I SERIOUSLY disagree (in a nice way )with you in the above statement....

I had people email me or PM me because I made such statements...
In one case of of our members had gone through surgery and some of us posted best wishes and "I'll pray for you" comments (i was one of them) that led me to get a couple of emails to let me know how offended they where by such comments...
Go figure....(again)

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Can't even spell my own name.    I need an edit button.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Mutual respect.

Tolerance.

These two have to go hand-in-hand for us every day in any given relationship...at work, at home, in the neighborhood. Everywhere.

The rules here are meant to provide us with a place to talk about guitars, and hopefully avoid heated arguments that usually come out of differing viewpoints on topics on which people are passionately polarized.

If you think of the rules as keeping other people's views from offending your views, you've missed the point. Tolerance, friends. Tolerance.

Nobody here is better than anyone else because they believe one thing or something entirely opposite, or slightly different, or nothing at all.

If we're offended by something someone else believes, it's because we've chosen to take offense. You have to learn to seperate a person's worth as a human being and colleague from what they believe on political and religious matters. To show disdain for them at any level for those things is a lack of respect, and a lack of tolerance.

Let's focus on what we have in common, respect one another, and be tolerant of the differences.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=peterm] In one case of of our members had gone through surgery and some of us posted best wishes and "I'll pray for you" comments (i was one of them) that led me to get a couple of emails to let me know how offended they where by such comments... [/QUOTE]Sometimes this issue is with the offender. Sometimes the real issue is with the offended, like this example.

If you are offended that someone wants to pray for someone else, you are the problem, not the person offering to pray. How dare you contact anyone with your offence! That is really poor form.
If what I wrote offends you, don't bother, no apology will be forthcoming.
(I think most of this thread violates the rule. )    

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

"The Way the Truth and the Life" indeed, my mistake acknowkedged, and my apologies ... as I said - rusty, to say the least.
peterm: I meant generic in the nicest sense also, meaning that "God" or "prayers" or "praying" or whatever, in this instance are not reffering to any particular diety. Not in how well intentioned they were, or how appreciatively they were recieved.

Don:
   Now, for starters I wasnt one who was personally offended by Serge's comments - at all... even - I was however pointing out how they could be mis-interpreted by someone with opposing views.
I try and be sensitive when I am putting forth a point of view that I know has opposing viewpoints, wording things as carefully as I know how.... to me thats showing repsect.
Ive always held the OLF in high esteem as a place where people are sensitive toward one anothers viewpoints, and where ppl are also not over sensitive toward peoples comments, but there have been alot of misunderstandings that have thinned the ranks somewhat around here. We are really much poorer for haveing lost the members we have in every instance I have witnessed. Shame.
Cheers
Charliewood

Guys, I think we're missing the point. It's not a matter of who is or isn't offended. It's a matter of the rules that have been set forth since day one. I think we owe it to Lance and Brock as well as each other, to follow the stinkin' rules.
It doesn't seem all that difficult to talk about guitar without religion, politics or bad language.

This forum is amazing.
Mostly because of the people who share so much and the way it is shared. If I lived closer to Serge I would likely be his friend by now because of this site. I would not want to loose that friendship.
The reason I am on this forum is because I love building musical instruments.
I don’t think any of us will ever loose that!

We will always have that much in common!

Isn’t that what we are here for?

Wade

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Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue]The issue of Serge leaving, however...[/QUOTE]
WHAT?!!! Man, you can't even spend a few HOURS away from this place!

Serge--Stop that, and come back! You are respected for who you ARE, not how you got there.

I dont care what religion you are, if you can teach me how to put on a fingerboard better or fret better or show me a cool jig you made, then I want to hear from you. This is about guitars for me, I liked meeting everyone who came to the get together in VA recently, it was cool to be around so many people who share my passion. That is also what makes this forum neat to me. So many people together talking about guitar making is cool. I am not the most senior member here, probably one of the newer guys, but I have enjoyed all of the converstaions on the forum. I just want to learn how to build my guitars better. I am not bothered by religious speech, even though I am not religious at all. I do think that rules are there for a reason, so people will not get angry or hurt. I am rambling but I wanted to post about keeping the big picture in mind. Pray for me or don't, believe in God or don't, just teach me how to make my guitars sing.

Blake

I'm kind of in shock to hear that our good friend Serge has left the forum.I sure hope he reconsiders but I know how strong his beliefs are. I will surely miss him if he doesn't reconsider. Here's to Serges quick return

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

[QUOTE=Homeboy] I dont care what religion you are, if you can teach me how to put on a fingerboard better or fret better or show me a cool jig you made, then I want to hear from you. This is about guitars for me, I liked meeting everyone who came to the get together in VA recently, it was cool to be around so many people who share my passion. That is also what makes this forum neat to me. So many people together talking about guitar making is cool. I am not the most senior member here, probably one of the newer guys, but I have enjoyed all of the converstaions on the forum. I just want to learn how to build my guitars better. I am not bothered by religious speech, even though I am not religious at all. I do think that rules are there for a reason, so people will not get angry or hurt. I am rambling but I wanted to post about keeping the big picture in mind. Pray for me or don't, believe in God or don't, just teach me how to make my guitars sing.

Blake[/QUOTE]

Wisely spoken...

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

[QUOTE=peterm] [QUOTE=Dennis E.] So, Irwin, now that we've established that folks are forbidden to express themselves in a faith-affirming way on this forum, why do you think it's acceptable to express your anti-religious views in the form of Lennon's "Imagine" song lyrics? If you like that lyric, surely you understand what it says?[/QUOTE]

Amen to that!

Those are the things that baffle me... its not Kosher to make any religious comment but posting lyrics like that are fine?[/QUOTE]  

 I apologize to you both and others , I should have thought what I was doing before posting Lennon's words. I realize now...no different....Thanks.The statement at the bottom of my postings is ringing in my ears....

[QUOTE=Don Williams]...and be tolerant of the differences.[/QUOTE]
Well, that's the rub, isn't it? Why do we even know that there ARE differences? If the clear and easy rules here were followed, I wouldn't know if you're a Republican or Democrat or neither; I wouldn't know if you're a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddist, pagan or atheist--I might be able to guess from cultural references, but it should only be a guess; I wouldn't know if you are black, white, brown, yellow, or a mix of those, unless I've met you or seen your picture--I shouldn't be able to tell from your posts. I've been posting on this forum since before we needed passwords--does anyone know for certain where I fit in the above choices (other than seeing me in photos or in person)? Didn't think so. Nor should you care!

Look, if you let it be known that you are any of the things listed above, there is someone who is going to feel alienated from you. Cultural references will pop up occasionally, and it's unavoidable and not a big deal. That's where tolerance comes in. Tolerance, though, begins at home, by realizing that it's best to tolerate the OLF's rules. Stop setting yourself apart!

I was forced to put my mildly autistic 21 years old son in jail last night. The many mixed message of our society are a big part of why. He see things such as this and others and to him they have equal weight as all the words I and others could say to him. It is more complicated than that but as this is a public forum
I will not be more specific.

The so called artist might say my reaction is what raises this to the level of art (awareness through controversy) though I see it as self promotion through controversy. I say to him and the many others the simplest among us are the victims of their artistic freedom.

As the father of teen daughters there are other issues.

Steve K. all my grandparents are at rest very near you.
I ask for your prayers

Our children are inundated with mixed messages.

Freedom of speech and expression come with responsibility to those most impressionable among us.

I hope god exists
and that he forgives me for wondering If the artist would feel strongly enough about his freedoms to defend them on the field of honor rather than have them upheld in court.

               Kirby Olsen

I also ask forgiveness of all forum members that may read this this is a guitar forum and normally happy place.
It is not a place for this discussion.

I have strong feelings on this and am incapable of being politically correct at this time

I mean what I say but will say nothing further.

Once again please forgive me.



There was one very negative response which I will not include.

But I opened the door.

I feel Lance has worked very hard to respect the beliefs and faith of all here. I think we
can all see the need for the rules. I also think that most are saddened by that need.

Serge there are just to many that would turn something healing into something ugly.

Though I cannot profess faith myself knowing I was in your prayers brought me comfort at that time and will continue to do so.

I hope you can find a way to stay

               Kirby

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

No Foul Language is a good rule.
No Politics is a good rule.
<here comes a stupid political joke> ... How many Rush Limbaughs does it take to change a light bulb? None! That is what staff are for. <told you it was stupid>
No proselytizing is a good rule.

To wish someone well or to communicate that you hold someone in high enough esteem that you would publicly admit to pray for them is not proselytizing.

Very little offends me. I wish more people would feel that way.

BUT, the forum must accommodate a diverse group. I spend more time here just because of the diversity. The forum moderators are doing a fabulous job To slack off would be a mistake.

To those of you who would be offended by me posting a "God bless you." or "I pray for (fill in a suitable pronoun or person's name)" Well, I will keep you, kindly, in my thoughts!

Thank you,Lance for such a nice place and I really appreciate your hard work.

Robert

I happened to be watching the thread in question at the time this occurred.  It is my feeling that Brock made a reasonable request to tone down (not eliminate) the religious references.  I am sure the response shocked Brock as well as Lance and others.  What came out publicly was a sincere regret of the need to inforce the rules of the forum but a commitment to do so for the good of the community.

In my short time here I have seen a liberal enforcement of the rules of the forum with public mentions coming out only when a thread was in jeopardy of  getting seriously out of hand.  If anyone here doubts the leniency granted us please re-read this thread.  Many have posted outside of the strict letter of the rules of the forum and they have been allowed to do so.

I have not been a member nor a lurker here long enough to suppose I know the reason behind anyone's decision on the matter of staying, leaving, posting or being quiet but I can imagine the concern this matter is causing Brock and Lance.  The decision made by Serge is the decision he felt he had to make but the request to tone down the religious references had to be made given the direction of the thread.  If allowed to progress more members would have decided the OLF was not a place for them.  As this was an off-topic thread I see it as a tragedy even greater than we now have.


I would like to say that I personally feel the right thing was done at the right time and in the right tone by the forum moderators.  I also feel Brock and Lance need to be congratulated for making a very hard decision and sticking with it when it is tough to do so.  I am sure in time to come it will be seen to have been the proper decision even though it can appear questionable at this time.

On thing I would like to say that I think is getting lost here is that Brock and Lance have ONLY the best interest of the whole community in their hearts and minds during these trying times therefore deserve and should be given a hearty

Thank you Brock and Lance!



my $0.02
Kirby

[QUOTE=CarltonM] [QUOTE=Don Williams]...and be tolerant of the differences.[/QUOTE]
Well, that's the rub, isn't it? Why do we even know that there ARE differences? If the clear and easy rules here were followed, I wouldn't know if you're a Republican or Democrat or neither; I wouldn't know if you're a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddist, pagan or atheist--I might be able to guess from cultural references, but it should only be a guess; I wouldn't know if you are black, white, brown, yellow, or a mix of those, unless I've met you or seen your picture--I shouldn't be able to tell from your posts. I've been posting on this forum since before we needed passwords--does anyone know for certain where I fit in the above choices (other than seeing me in photos or in person)? Didn't think so. Nor should you care!

Look, if you let it be known that you are any of the things listed above, there is someone who is going to feel alienated from you. Cultural references will pop up occasionally, and it's unavoidable and not a big deal. That's where tolerance comes in. Tolerance, though, begins at home, by realizing that it's best to tolerate the OLF's rules. Stop setting yourself apart!
[/QUOTE]

Both Carlton and The Don offer sage advise and everyone should re-read what was posted in the quote above and in Don's 2 submissions further up.

In essence, you a but one of many so follow the forum rules, they are designed to avoid exactly this kind of situation.

Should at anytime through cultural references etc you become aware that another member is of a certain colour, creed, religious or political persuasion, be tolerant and follow the forum rules.

Not many, not hard, no exceptions required.

Cheers

Kim

I'm sorry, but this thing is starting to make me nauseous.   

a) If this thread alone doesn't prove to you why these rules are needed and how destructive dialog on these topics can be to what otherwise would have been a productive day of luthiery discussion, you shouldn't be left alone with sharp objects.

b) Someone who doesn't want to be your friend anymore because of an EXTREMELY polite paragraph of mild dissent was never your friend to start with. A friend sticks around, tells you your being an a-hole, and you move on.

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John Watkins
CNC Guitar Parts

John,
I can't respond nicely to what you wrote, so I'll leave it at that, which is probably what you should have done.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

I fully support Lance and Brock. I happen to be a minister and my life revolves around Religion and the ministry but not here on this site. Like others have mentioned we need to develope a little thicker skin. I'm personally not offended by religious statements made from religious or non-religious people. We are all here to learn and exchange ideas about lutherie not religious beliefs. I like all of you guys and hope we get past this real quick!

I say someone delete this post before anyone else says something they can't edit....

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Few comments from a guy who is married to a women who makes him read and pray every night and go to church every Sunday :) (God bless her :P).

1. Where is this no politics and no religion rule? Could you share the link? I retried to sign up and see if I somehow missed it, but I didn't really see it. Maybe we should make it more prominent.

2. Agreed with no politics and no cuss words

3. Agreed that proselytizing (preaching in attempt to convert) should be taken somewhere else

4. Agreed that displaying one's faith is not proselytizing. People should be able to express their beliefs and faith (you can't really separate that from the person), but they can do it in a manner without saying my God is better than yours, all non-belivers/infidels/gentiles go to hell, or religion is the biggest scam in the world, etc.... This country is founded on the pricniple of freedom of religion where people can practice their own faith. The puritans/pilgrams and what not happens to be Christian, but the same principle applies to Muslim, Jews, Buddhist, etc, and even the atheist (but maybe not for the Southern Baptist…. OK, that is a joke :P)

5. Agreed that Serge seems like a really nice guy (I am new here), and we wish him to come back. Things happen sometimes, but we can all move on eventually.

6. Let's get rid of the Off Topic Forum :) This is a place to discuss Luthier work anyway.

 

Enough, please...

Thanks

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