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[QUOTE=Rod True]

I'm surprised that some folks have to use clamps to get their bindings to seat tight, I would think that we would all bend them as close or nearly perfect to the body shape as possible. Don't you all bend the bindings in your binding jig if you have one? Also I tend to take the binding out of the jig just before I'm installing it, after I've cut the ledges. I haven't had to use that much force to get the bindings in there (knock on wood) and never hope I have to. Different strokes right.[/QUOTE]

If you have a guitar shape with a 'tight' waist curve (ie parlour/O/OO?the opposite of a dread shape) then binding bent to the exact shape of the sides (in the bender) will not fit in the binding channel- it will require a tighter bend. A hand 'touchup' on a bending iron is one solution. Another is to make or improvise (by padding the waist of your outside mold) a jig to hold the binding in its tighter curve after it comes out of the bender.
The thicker and stiffer the (wood) binding, the more this is a problem. It also makes it obvious why factories like to use nice floppy soft plastic binding.

BTW, I used CA to bind a headstock recently (with ebony). When I dropped the raw neck, part of the binding just 'popped off'. I'm glad I use Titebond-type glue for body bindings.

I also use fiber tape for body bindings. With a wash coat of shellac or lacquer, I haven't had tear-up problems yet. No doubt that's next!

Cheers
John

John, although I have never experiences this, I have been told that Titebond is susceptible to cold creep.
I am comfortable with the CA method now, but I have to admit that this has scared me away from using Titebond period.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Many folks out there have built dozens, if not hundreds or maybe thousands of guitars gluing wood binding on with CA glue. Methinks it's pretty tried and true by now.

[QUOTE=Mattia Valente] Many folks out there have built dozens, if not hundreds or maybe thousands of guitars gluing wood binding on with CA glue. Methinks it's pretty tried and true by now.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure you're correct about the thousands of guitars, but...
I like to do a destructive test and see fracture in the wood, not along the glue line. Foolishly, I didn't do this before I started using CA glue. When I did this yesterday with some ebony binding scraps (gluing to cherry), the CA (thin, thick, accelerated, not) failed along the glue line every time after a sharp 'rap' with a small hammer.. In a few instances some very small slivers of cherry were pulled away with the ebony. This was using the 'tape and wick' technique.

It may depend on the species of wood being used, and my particular bad technique.

Anyway, for body binding I like to have the working time that is afforded by Titebond-type glue (I've also used PU glue but it is slippery and messy and interferes with the tape adhesion), as well as some visible squeezeout.

BTW, rubber inner tubes will leave black marks and will also glue -not irreversibly- themselves to the body. A good scrub in detergent and water before use is recommended at a minimum.

John

I pre-bend the bindings, then use titebond and StewMac binding tape. No problem.

Ron

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[QUOTE=LanceK] John, although I have never experiences this, I have been told that Titebond is susceptible to cold creep.
I am comfortable with the CA method now, but I have to admit that this has scared me away from using Titebond period.
[/QUOTE]Lance,
You probably know most of this, but because you brought it up I thought I would add some information.
Creep is the permanent deformation resulting from prolonged stress below the elastic limit. Creep is influenced by the magnitude of the load, the time the load is applied, and the temperature. Creep occurs in all plastic adhesives which are under stress. The higher the stress and the longer the part is under the stress dictates whether or not creep may be a significant factor in the performance of a part.

CA will creep. I'm not sure if Titebond will creep more or less than CA. I suspect Titebond will creep more, but based on tensile strength of 3500 psi for Titebond and 2700 psi for CA, I could be wrong.

The best way to avoid or reduce creep is to have less stress on the parts. For bindings, that means have it fit better before bonding. If the fit is bad, the wood will continue to exert force on the glue joint and induce creep. If it is a nice tight fit, there are no worries about creep with any adhesive.

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Hesh-
Thanks for the CA details.
Steve-Thanks for the creep info.

BTW (not important) I'm using LeeValley GF2002? glue (Titebond variant) for bindings and linings and fish glue for bracing and gluing tops/backs to rims these days.
Fiber-reinforced tape for holding bindings in place- I've tried cord, rubber strips, and masking tape as well but prefer the fiber tape..
Cheers

John

Good stuff guys. I appreciate the info.

John

I should ad that using CA makes it POSSIBLE for me to put bindings on my guitar. My skill level is simply not high enough nor do I possess enough of the proper tools to use hide or even LMI white or TiteBond glues.

If I was a professional builder or had built enough guitars that I now have ALL the requisite tools I would consider something other than CA for my bindings.

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Thank You and Best To All

Larry, you really can use titebond for the binding. I did on my very first, it was really really messy, but you can do it.

Chin up my friend, chin up

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Awwww your so nice Hesh. Tastes Great, Less Filling.

Come on a million ways to build a guitar

I will agree with my good buddy Hesh, do what you feel comfortable with, and as long as you get the expected results, your good to go.

Now, fish glue would be one messy way of doing bindings.

Larry, just so you know, I too use CA for attaching the bindings. I like the fact that I can "clamp" it all in place, making sure there are no gaps and than hitting it with the CA.

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I wonder if fish glue would work well for bindings. It does have a pretty long setup time does it not. And it dries more or less transparent.

I have problems this time of year with LMI white glue, my preferred binding glue, because my shop is cold (an attempt to control humidity), usually somewhere around 55 degrees, and the lmi glue is drying white, emphisizing the smallest void that may occur. Titebond is still my friend there, drying to a nice neutral color. I may start using CA, but not with reverse lining for reasons that Lance referred to, that stuff will just pour into the box if given half a chance.

Steve, that is a very cool fixture for holding the binding straps. I may have to go that rout.

John

John, I'm sure you could use fish glue for the bindings and I bet it would work very well indeed. Hopefully some of our fish glue experts will chime in here.

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[QUOTE=John K] Steve, that is a very cool fixture for holding the binding straps. I may have to go that rout.
John[/QUOTE]
I used Titebond with that fixture, but it is better suited for CA. With tithebond, I'd do one binding and wait overnight to do the other. With CA, you could easily do all the binding in one sitting. If the CA didn't stick to the rubber bands, it would be sweet.

If you do make one of these, be sure to have some felt or cork on the inside.

Also, wear safety glasses when stretching the rubber bands!   Don't ask me how I know that.

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[QUOTE=Hesh1956] .....Additionally, when we speak of CA there are many different types and qualities of CA too. What I learned was that the less soft and porous the wood the longer curing time CA you should use. So, for example, when gluing ebony thin CA is not a good choice........

....I also learned that when two parts fit absolutely perfectly thin CA, if they are not hard woods, is great. If any gap exists or clamping is needed to make a perfect joint medium to thick CA is desirable.
.........
We like the thin CA because it wicks well but with this there are other considerations like staining. .........
[/QUOTE]
Hesh gives some great advice. Knowing when to use what thickness of CA is very important.

I learned a lot about CA building Radio Controlled airplanes. I learned a lot more when I started using the stuff for holding together medical devices. There are so many different versions of CA.
I've seen errors by engineers in their designs. Most of the errors is about gaps in the joints. Typically the engineer didn't understand that CA strength is directly dependant on choosing the correct viscosity for the size of the gap in the joint.

CA is great stuff, but it is not very tough. What I mean by that is that it has pretty low impact resistance - it is brittle. They have "Toughened" versions that have small amounts of rubber in the glue that greatly enhances its impact resistance. It probably is a pain to sand.

Titebond has much greater impact resistance. Does this make a difference in a wood guitar? Probably not, unless it is dropped on a cold day.

(Sorry about rambling on like that..... )

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I actually prefer to use some wood glue that has good gap filling properties like titebond, or an epoxie. That channel is really important to the sound of a guitar, (tap the top before and just after cutting the binding channel to see the difference that gap makes)and I wonder if it might not be important to make sure the binding is well attached all through its channel. I imagine (more or less correctly) that there is a little cocking of the binding as it is pulled over toward the top purfling by the top edge but with no corresponding pull on the bottom edge of the binding. This may be a needless concern of mine but I do imagine that the contact between binding and the inside corner of the binding slot is not as tight as it probably should be and that CA will not do much to knit those two parts together if they are not in close contact. Hence my preference for titebond. Its like cheating.

I hope that does not sound like sloppy building. Its probably being neurotic about fitting a surface that you can't see and check up on.

Steve, I have no problem waiting for a day for the glue to really harden before working on the other side of the binding. I do it all the time. With more than one guitar going at the same time there is plenty to do while waiting.

I'm a "belt and suspenders" type, so I use the LMI binding tape with a pre-shaped binding and titebond, then wrap the whole package with an elastic binding tape from the local fabric shop. I bought 30 yards, but I'm only using about 15 at a time, otherwise I've got a mummy guitar. I haven't had any problems with either the elastic tape or the LMI tape sticking too hard, but I think Hesh's idea of using a hot air gun for the sticky tape is excellent- I'm going to start using it. I've had a couple of problems where the purfling channel was a little too wide, and a gap was left. I've generally used CYA to fill the little gaps. Once the gaps were a little bigger so I cut slivers of the back wood, and glued them in with CYA. I've been so excited about building each guitar, I haven't taken time to build all the jigs I need yet. The Woolston neck jig, and Don William's binding jig are on the schedule before the next guitar. I'm expecting less trouble with gaps on bindings or purflings with the binding jig.

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Gene

Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason- Mark Twain

Problem I've had is that even after bending the binding to the exact shape needed, using the same form and blanket as the sides get, the binding doesn't sit well at the waist on the back side because of the back radius. Ideally, the bindings would be bent and at the same time, twisted through the waist area.

By chance, stumbled onto Roy Noble's method on this page. The photo is titled purfling, not binding specifically, BTW. Very interensting though. Never seen it done this way!

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Roy use to post here once in a while, maybe he'll chime in on this unique way to do bindings?

I always relive the inner edge of the binding where the touches the inside corner of the binding channel. This allows just a tiny bit of wiggle room, it also lets the binding set more easily in the channel.
I dont take off very much, I just hit it with a scraper a few times, just knocking the corner down a bit.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com