Official Luthiers Forum!

I am not much of a wine drinker, but I have a question for those of you who are.

I know there are decantuers sold to maximize the airation, and special devices to let the wine breathe. People who "know" wine have told me that this is not bogus and it does improve the taste. Like I said... I don't drink it, so I am only reporting what I hear.

But here is my question.

Would it be possile to over airiate it? Is there such a thing as TOO much air?

I have an idea germinating.. but I am not sure if it is worth pursuing or not.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

To answer your quesiton, yes, you can kill it. But it's usually a case of too long rather than too much air.
I'm not a snob but Jenn is and she rubs off on me. Beer is my food of choice.

Yeah...too much air over a long period of time turns wine to vinegar.

I've never left a bottle of red breathing for more than an hour and unconsumed for more than 3 hours. The wine snobs know this and IMO would not be concerned with "hyperventilation" during the period of time they normally have a bottle opened.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Wine used to be my favorite food group. With Spring here, now it's beer.

Yes, wine does turn to vinegar with too much exposure to oxygen. It's always trying to do that, so limiting the exposure is a good idea, once it's breathed enough after opening.

As for maximizing aeration, sounds like marketing hype to me. I sampled some fine wines when I lived in Napa Valley. Never once saw anybody use one of those.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I'm a BIT partial to Chilean and Californian reds, but these days I hardly drink due to the fact that I fall asleep.....

No, I am talking about right before you drink it. There are products on the market that infuse air into the wine. Some are "jugs" that maximize the surface area as the wine runs into the bottle, and others are complex little funnels and spouts.

If you believe the hype they claim a $20 bottle can seem more like a $50 bottle if you prep it properly.

That sounds like hooey to me, but I have asked some local wine people and they seem to agree...

but they may have drank the koolaid of the true believers (just as we have with respect to tonewoods, etc.) so I was seeking opinions from others.

I have an idea for a better mousetrap, but I have no idea if this is an idea people think is valid, or one they snicker at.

Thanks for your opinions.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Well I'm not a wine snob either. I make my own and pretty darn good if I must say so myself. The only air I add to it is with each swallow.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

What kinda wine are ya makin Bob?

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Hesh I think you are onto something, along with disolving shellac flakes and you just have uncovered the secret to the red violin.

JJ, I am suspicious as to the true reason you've never decanted more than 1 hour and left a bottle unconsumed for more than 3 hours

Brock I used to think a lot of what you were asking was hooey as well. We've got a number of friends with impressive wine cellars and I am a believer now too that it isn't Kool-Aid infused hype.

The other one that I used to think was nonsense was using Riedl wine glasses...they actually do improve the taste of wine.

Anthony...I have a hard time delaying gratification, so I let it breathe and then pour it back into the bottle. Having the bag wrapped around the bottle gives it an even better bouquet.

The wine glasses are a perfect example of wine snobbery...the more expensive they are, the better the taste. In reality, as long as you can get your nose inside the glass while you are drinking, you'll have tha same effect.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I've got an aerating thing. Mine kind of pumps air down into a diffuser that sits in the wine. But, I reckon that they are a bit of a gimmick. It's heaps easier to just open the bottle and let it sit for half an hour. A slightly chilled red that's been let to breathe properly is terrific! (Reds are supposed to be served at 'room temperature'. That's European room temp. Which, according to my wine books, is about 18 celcius. You have to chill reds in Oz because the average room temp in summer is over 30 degrees.) But, if you reckon you get better results by force aerating, then go for it!

I don't go in for the whole "It's a $50 bottle so it must be good" thing. If a wine tastes good to you then it's a good wine. Price is irrelevant when it comes to judging taste. Having said that, I wish I could afford some of the wines I like .

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If God had wanted us to drink beer, he would have given us stomaches.

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Perhaps add a bit of Everclear to it and very shortly you won't care what it tastes like........ [/QUOTE]

Hesh,

Whatcha gonna use for French polish when the Everclear's gone?

Hey, sounds like some song lyrics!

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

JJ, sorry I was just poking fun -- hope no offense was taken.

So you don't buy into fancy wine glasses. We'll just have to do a blind taste test when you are at my place in June.    I suspect you are right about the fancy Riedl glasses. I suspect the large glass exposes more of the wine to air and the bouquet to your nose as you suggest.

[QUOTE=Anthony Z] JJ, sorry I was just poking fun -- hope no offense was taken.

So you don't buy into fancy wine glasses. We'll just have to do a blind taste test when you are at my place in June.    I suspect you are right about the fancy Riedl glasses. I suspect the large glass exposes more of the wine to air and the bouquet to your nose as you suggest.[/QUOTE]

Anthony my friend, that sounds like a smashing idea! Blind taste tests, and lots of them! Of course you need something in between to cut the taste and change the perception, so I'll recommend fine cigars and lots of single malt!!!

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Brock, I found that the oxygen will disipate the tannic nature of the wine, thus adding complexity to the taste and smoothness...

I'll often use a decanter if I'll be drinking more than just a glass. If I drink a small portion, I'll just put the cork back in the bottle. The next day, the wine is always at it's peak (at least for me)... You can probably keep it like this for about 3-4 days (with the cork). After that, it will start turning on you.

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Alain, I suspected you were a genius....you just proved I was right! What an absolutely great idea!

Oh ya I will supply the vitamin "I"buprofene in the morning

Toasting you with a fine single malt as I type!

O2 is death to wine. Through the years, I have found that pouring the wine into glasses 15 min before serving will do it. If just a glass, let breath in glass and find a gizmo that creates vacuum in bottle so no O2 for remaining wine. I think called Vac-U-Vin

You don't want to airate wine for too long. If you do you're just asking for microbial spoilage. It's the stray bacteria and yeasts floating around in the air that will turn it into vinegar, things like acetobacter which turns sugar to acetic acid (vinegar), rather than the usual yeast sacromyces cerevisiae(sp?) that produces the good stuff. They float around and get into the wine. If you don't have time to let a bottle breathe, you can swirl it around in the glass to coat the sides, you get a greater surface area in contact with the air, so it can speed things along. I studied fermentation technology at uni, even had to make some for a major project.

Interestingly, a bloke I know who happens to be a radiologist, says if you iradiate the wine with around 50 grays of gamma radiation (which is a hell of a lot, btw) you can turn an average wine into a great wine. I'm gonna be doing the taste test soon. And, no there's no residual radiation. So my liver won't glow in the dark.

Brock,

I think you are asking something that there are differing opinions about. But if I interpret your question I think you want to know if there is a market for a wine airator. As you said yourself there are contraptions on the market for doing this so there are people who believe that airating wine helps. Therefore there is a market.

If you have a new idea you may want to think of a patent because if it is a really good or great idea, some other company who has a large distrution market may latch on to it produce it without owing you royalties. GOOD LUCK.

Oh ya I want one!   

DavidO

Yes, that is exactly it. My curiousity is about how MUCH air is considered good. I have seen most of the commercial products to accomplish this and I have something that will do a much better/more efficient job.

It isn't so much a "new" idea as it is repurposing an industrial contraption for a consumer use. But I still think I could create a product around this.

Thanks for the input guys. This has been helpful.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Brock Poling]
Yes, that is exactly it. My curiousity is about how MUCH air is considered good. I have seen most of the commercial products to accomplish this and I have something that will do a much better/more efficient job.

It isn't so much a "new" idea as it is repurposing an industrial contraption for a consumer use. But I still think I could create a product around this.

Thanks for the input guys. This has been helpful.

[/QUOTE]

Brock, I'm not sure how much air is the right amount - you don't want to oxidise the wine, or 'bruise' it, but you might want to filter the air going in order to keep the nasty microbes out. That's why wine doesn't keep for long if you put the cork back in, the wrong type of microbes have gotten in there and messed with the chemistry.

If you could incorporate a filter in your aerator (and we're talking down to micrometer levels), you might be able to claim that it'll make the wine keep for longer. That would be a big advantage me thinks. Not everyone wants to drink a full bottle at one sitting.

Have you noticed that no matter what room you are in that it is always room temperature?...

As Alain said, I use a decanter also. I also have one of those gadgets for getting the air out of the bottle to help slow the oxidation once opened.

If I am doing a wine tasting I have and use the proper glasses (size and shape can help but are mostly a snob factor) for where it matters (fitting the nose into a glass of Red, etc.

Bobc...you wouldnt be Sicilian if you did make a little of your own wine... . I used to live in Italian and Sicilian neighborhoods in NYC and NJ and everybody had someone in the family that made wine.

I have tasted every kind of wine from swill to $10000 a bottle collectors wine (usually not good) but my favorite wine by far is the wine I drank last summer and will again this summer...

The Jose Romanillos guitarmaking course (I know Joshua French has also been) is held at a monastery in Siguenza, Spain the first 2 weeks in August and the meals are served in a cafeteria in which the meal is always what ever is fresh and mostly grown there on the monastery grounds. For lunch and dinner, there is always local red wine and crusty bread with every meal. After spending up to 16 hours a day in the workshop building a Romanillos Spanish classical guitar, the breakfast, lunch and dinner is a time when everyone stops work to eat together and talk.

In our class there was 18 people from 14 countries and breaking bread and drinking local wine was part of the special experience... the wine was good, not a great wine but a year later I can still taste it in my mind because all of the associations and memories I have with it.

I cant wait to go again this year (August 2-17)

Guilty as charged! I drink wine regularly. Always reds, and mainly cabs. I enjoy making wine on a yearly basis. The special tops that "open" up your wine quickly work great. They are meant to be used on affordable bottles of wine to smooth out the tannins and soften the finish quickly. Letting the wine open in a decanter will accomplish the same effect, but it takes longer to get there and most people just want to start drinking when they uncork a bottle. As for the comment about many expensive wineries not using these, their are actually many wineries that do; but usually the expensive bottles have aged longer and have had a chance for the lees to settle and the tannins to mellow. Opening it up more at that point would only be ruining the maturing process on "ripe" bottles. It's almost like picking strawberries, you could pick them a little early and use some sugar and they will still taste good, but if you wait until they are perfect on the plant; they are perfectly sweet on their own. As for the non-believers, I was one myself for many years. I received a wine kit as a gift from a friend that had a breather in it and tried it once thinking I would throw it away. I used a few different cabs and there was definitely a significant difference between the poured and aerated glasses. It may also need to be said for some that these tops and decanters should only be used for high-tannin wines, using them with whites, sweet reds, ports, and any desert wine would not improve the quality of the wine.