Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello Everyone,

Couple questions for you all.

1st, I bought a premade classical bridge with a straight saddle slot from LMI. I was not paying attention when I ordered it, so I did not get the angled slot. Can I still use it, and account for compensation somehow? Maybe at the nut, or with a wide saddle?

2nd, I also bought a preslotted fingerboard from LMI and I thougth it would come with the nut end cut flush to fit against the nut, but it came with about 1/4 inch of ebony on the nut end. I assume I am supposed to cut the fingerboard at that point?

Thanks for the help!

Jeff

Yes that's what they expect, but I'm not sure they are correct. I've measured a bunch and ended up adding the wood back to the end of the fretboard with good results. Some folks think you need to shorten the fretboard length at the nut by .020 to .040 inches, I remain unconvinced. Maybe for bluegrass with their high action.

Fill the bridge slot and re-slot the bridge at the correct location ( or simply buy a new one). Otherwise your intonation is probably going to be way off. As far as the nut end goes...you have a choice...cut off at the slot (zero point) OR take off an addtional .020-.030" off the end. If you do it now( remove some extra) it will definitely improve(lessen) the sharpness down at that end of the neck. If you don't, I can almost guarrantee you that many if not all of your first fret notes will be at least 10-13 cents sharp. Then you will have to remove the nut and do it anyhow. Try it for yourself...get a guitar that hasn't had any modification and tune it perfectly to a good tuner. Then press down the first string at the first fret and look at your tuner the F note will be "way" off. Every guitar is different and off different amounts ( except those like Mario, Taylor, Anderson, Washburn, Mcpherson,SKG, and a several others who remove some amount from the fret board in the build process). We all have different beliefs regarding how much. I like the Buzz Feiten System so I build it into my guitars.

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Answers for questions: 1: Most classical guitars bridges that I have seen do not have angled saddle slots. I can't remember at this time how they are compensated if at all. I can look it up later and post when I get home.
2. The 1/4" or more left on your fretboard is in case you want to make a zero fret. I've had guitars with the extra fret at nut end(zero fret). I don't think I've ever seen a classical guitar with one but on steel string guitars for sure. So just cut it off nice and square and plum so that your nut will snuggle up close and personal.

[QUOTE=Jeff Doty] Hello Everyone,
1st, I bought a premade classical bridge with a straight saddle slot from LMI. I was not paying attention when I ordered it, so I did not get the angled slot.
Jeff[/QUOTE]

I take it that you aren't building a classical? Most classicals do have a straight bridge slot. If you are building a steel string, send it back. I'm sure they will be happy to swap with you.

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

This post has raised a number of, I think, very basic questions in my mind that I'd like views on. I'm on guitar #2, which is closer to building from scratch than #1 which was a kit. For this guitar I bought the pre-slotted fingerboard from Stewmac, without much prior thought. Looking at their spec, their fingerboard is 15/64" thick while the LMII fingerboard is 5/16" thick. Seems like quite a difference. Any pros or cons to either? Also, why the different radii for fingerboards? Player's preference? Is a 16" radius noticeably different from a 12" radius?

My appologies...I hadn't noticed whether or not you were building a classical or steel string. I assumed steel string. Ron is right about the Classical Tradtional slot being straight. When I slot my fretboards I always have a little extra left at the nut end. Then when I measure the amount I want to remove from the end I make one final cut. As far as intonating a Classical Ron is right again... they usually were never intonated either. Traditionalists would want that spec to be part of their new buid. Me I prefer an instrument that plays in tune. Carvin has been intonating their Classical Bridge for several years now (for whatever that is worth). I just think all guitars need to be intonated and adjusted to play as in tune as possible. If you talk to the artists who now use BFTS on their Classicals they all say the same thing... "They just assumed the flaws were inherent in the instrument... they had to live with them" Not so anymore ...I think... the times they are a changin ... Hey it's just my two cents. You do what makes YOU happy...that's what is so great about building your own!

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Thanks for the help everyone. I am building a classical. But, I assumed that compensation would still be needed, even if slight. I have ordered an extra wide saddle, and I may work with that to develop a bit of comepensation.

Dave, you said:

"If you do it now( remove some extra) it will definitely improve(lessen) the sharpness down at that end of the neck. If you don't, I can almost guarrantee you that many if not all of your first fret notes will be at least 10-13 cents sharp."

Why is this? Is it because the 1st slot they put on the board is considered a zero fret slot which pushes the scale down if you don't use it for a zero fret? How much do I take off past the 1st fret slot (zero)? It is a 650mm scale length.

Thank you for the help!

Jeff

Classical Guitar builders DO build in compensation, just in different ways than a steel string builder would. An excellent article on adjusting intonation in classicals can be found at http://www.byersguitars.com/research/Intonation.pdf . Greg Byers builds really nice classicals and is known for the quality of intonation in his guitars.

In the past classical builders would split the difference in setforth and setback of the saddle by contouring the saddle as to where each string hits the saddle. This is a very small difference but helps although not enough.

Greg Byers makes a case for adjusting both at the saddle as well as at the nut. His logic is very well thought out and some of the conclusions are not that different than BFTS, just implemented in a different way. I use his method on my classical guitars and use a 3mm saddle which then gives me alot of room to adjust for setback.

The challenge in adjusting for compensation in classicals is that the strings stretch much more than in steel strings so adjusting action, intonation and compensation needs to take this into consideration so it can be more difficult but definitely attainable.

I build nothing but classicals but play everything. It may take me longer to setup my classicals but they can be just as in tune as any other instrument and stay that way.

If you are just starting out and are going to build the classical to play yourself, you can try one of the tusq classical saddles (stewmac stocks them) that are already compensated. If the guitar is for a commission then taking the time to learn and adjust your intonation can be very rewarding.

Jeff, It is mostly because the tension when pressing down the string at the first fret is greatest at that point. The problems with sharpness and inherent "out-of-tuneness" is due to the lay out of the frets. A really great article on the subject...best I have ever read...is MIKE DOOLINS series on intonation. Sorry I don't have the url but a google search for Doolin Guitars will surely point you in the right direction. His article clearly explains temperments and why the problems we have are what they are. Mike's a Master Builder in every sense...genius!

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Shawn, I agree. and as for Greg Byers he is a Master! I was just refering to the many traditionalists who built Classicals with no compensation at all. I am sure everyone today is much more aware of intonation and all are trying to do their best to "fix" the problems we have with it. I also agree with Byers method in that you must adjust both the nut and the saddle.

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"