Official Luthiers Forum!

Having installed a p/up in only one classical, I am a long way from experienced. I would welcome input from those who have had good--or otherwise--experience with this job. Brands you like? Brands you don't?
Oh, and while researching the I-Beam for steel strings, I noticed they make one for classicals. Should I consider one of these?

And another point, the pickup I used that one time was a Highlander. I'd rather not go that route (pardon the pun) again.

Thanks friends,

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Steve,

I know it's probably the customer requesting it, but if there is any way possible, skip the pickup and go with a mic in front of the guitar. I've never heard a pickup that didn't ruin the sound.

With that said, if the customer insists on a pickup, the best kind I've heard (sorry I can't remember the name) is a type that almost looks like a little clip-on mic that attaches inside the soundhole. It is basically a little internal mic. I'll try and find the name/brand and post it here.

Cheers!

John

Some very famous classical guitarists were using hidden pickups secretly for years. Sharon Isbin is one, and I think that John Williams may have, also. These were transmitting systems (no cord). You might try checking with Blue Guitar in San Diego to see if they are familiar with a system for classical. They do a lot of work for both classical and other guitarists.

Steve, I'm not sure that the nylon strings have the force to drive an IBeam. I'm not familiar with the classical model you refer to but I would think it is fine.
If I were in your shoes, I'd go with a K&K Trinity. Both an under saddle transducer and an internal mic that can be blended. I think that's the only way you'll get true tone and the percussive feel from a classical.
Let me know if I can help you with K&K research.

It can be as simple as the quad piezo K and K pickup for Classicals. As you know, no battery, great sound. Simply super glue to the top and install the end pin jack. Never done it, but it's a way to go and inexpensive.

Good luck, I'm interested in what others have to say as well.



http://www.kksound.com/pureclassic.html

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Correction: Never done it. Never done it on a classical. Done it many times on steel strings and they are funtastic on those guitars. I can't imagine why they wouldn't perform well on a classical since it's all about sound transmission, not the steel or nylon string itself.

Again, I'm interested in other systems folks may have used. A microphone will always give the truest sound.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Steve, The k and k would be easily installed when constructing the top, no bridge pin holes to worry about. ?

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

I've installed many K&K's into classicals. The Pure Classic sounds as good as
your going to get I think. The K&K Double Helix allows for adjusting bass
and treble response - 2 heads split into a stereo OJ. I like them both. One
great thing is that you get a near active strength signal from a passive
system. Install them with a "vintage endpin jack" and you've got a no impact
installation to boot! Use the supplied super glue when doing the install - it's
far superior to the tape and with care you can still remove the transducers
with no damage to instrument or pickup.
    The mic mentioned earlier in this thread may be the "Crown" mic.

http://
www.kksound.com/pureclassic.html[/QUOTE]

I just put one of these in my classical. I haven't put it to a really good test
yet but the little I have had it plugged in I really liked. Two things. If I
were to do it again I would put it on before I glued the top on. And if you
use any pins to locate your bridge when you glue it on, don't forget you
have 4 transducers underneath if you install the pick up before the
bridge. I got lucky and didn't hit it but never even thought about when I
drilled the holes to locate the bridge.
Good Luck

Ok, back on line now.
First up: thanks for your willingness to share, guys!

John--indeed, it is a customer's request, and he's pretty well set on an internal pickup. I'll run the idea of an internal mic by him, and see what he says.

Bill--the system you describe sounds ideal, but expensive. This will be for an old Alvarez classical, which looks pretty battle-scarred, but has sentimental value to the owner. (I.e., it's not a great guitar, he just wants to be able to hear it on stage.)

Paul--thanks for your input. Interesting point about the output from the nylon strings. I just assumed that I-Beam had worked that little detail out. Hmmm...
Again, the system you recommend sounds a bit pricey for this particular instrument? (Though I don't know that for sure.)

Bruce, Yukon and Danny--can I just say you guys are real men? What I mean is that the thought of gluing those dots on the underside makes me queasy. How do you do it? It may be as easy as falling off a bike, but still I'm uncomfy with the idea. First, as stated, it is a retro-fit. It has a smallish soundhole. I'd be working blind, well, nearly so, and then the thought about gluing stuff in w/ CA under those conditions makes me blanche.

That off my chest, it sounds like K&K makes a fair number of models. I've never tried their products, but this is the brand that has top billing so far. Maybe I should get to know 'em?

Thanks guys, you're helping me clarify my choices.

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Steve,

    If you are able to reach through the soundhole so that your fingers can
comfortably touch the area beneath the bridge then I think you'll be able
to successfully use the glue. First of all determine it the bridge plate has
a flat or curved profile. If it's curved then the transducers are not likely to
work well directly beneath the saddle. In this case you can mount them
(as Dieter at K&K has recommended) on the top itself at the immediate
front edge of the bridge plate. On lesser/battle worn instruments
(perhaps such as the Alverez in question) when the bridge plate is not flat
I have sanded the region beneath the saddle flat to accept the
transducers. Nextly, assuming there are fan braces - those braces will
help you line up the transducer along the saddle. You can see in the
diagrams above that the two inner transducers are just beside the middle
brace - so that is your guide, as is the edge of the bridge plate. Lastly,
the pickup is not finicky. You can be a mm or two this way or that and
it's going to sound just fine. Just get 'em on flat and try not to glue your
fingertips in there too. If you feel something going awry pull the
transducer out before the glue sets and gently use a razor blade to clear
the glue from the bright copper surface. Don't forget to secure the wires
when you are done. Good luck! You'll get it done no problem. Remember
to try a couple of dry runs first.

One IMPORTANT thought on installation:
LATEX GLOVES
Don't ask me how I know this but you don't want to feel that sense of panic when you suddenly realize that you've glued yourself to the inside of a guitar.
I can hear it now, in 200 years some repair guy with a mirror saying, "the secret to Woolson's sound is that he put a chunk of skin on the bridge plate". Only to have a bunch of 23 century builders cutting off their finger tips and installing them on the bridgeplate to get "that" sound.

Steve, on steel strings, I made a cutting board plastic template that bolted in position through the bridge pin holes. You could do something similar, using double sided sticky foam tape, then remove the template after getting the pickups installed on the classical. I second the use of gloves and use them myself.

Someone mentioned 3M adhesive on a different brand working well. I bet you could find a tenacious glue that would work well, to give that fudge factor we all desire. Super glue is great in places. I prefer to be able to see what I'm doing, that's why I suggested putting these in during the build. I know, this is a retro.....

Good luck in the process of getting it done.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Thanks again, guys.
I'll let you know what I end up doing, but the smart money is on Kinnaird chickening out, and going with a B-Band ultra thin transducer.

Start placing your bets now.

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Oh yes-- so Paul, all we have to do is glue part of ourselves to each instrument? (So that's the secret.) Kind of you to share that! I've done that a number of times, but stupid me, I always scrape off the fingerprints, etc. No longer!

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

I have used many types over the years .
Under saddle types are not well suited for nylon strings at all.
BUT if price is a factor you can not beat the Baggs !
installs in a few minutes -does not affect the guitars tone and sounds natural !
it weights a few grams !
I've used them on classicas & "Flammers"!!
My name for Flamencos!

mike
www.collinsguitars.com

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Mike Collins

Mike, Which Baggs are you suggesting? Interesting conversation here.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

K&K Sound Systems makes some amazing pickups for acoustics. You should
deffinately check them out.

Whoops I didnt see that others had aleady said the same thing.

Mike, I'm curious if you have done a head-to-head comparison between LRBaggs and K&K on your flamancos? When I did that on my steel strings, I found the Baggs to sound a bit "dead". My only explaination was that it weighs considerably more than the K&K transducers.
Just wondering if you have any thoughts on that matter.