Official Luthiers Forum!

IF you can say nothing nice, don't say anything at all thread.

I have been thinking about a couple threads that went bad this week and I feel compelled to make a statement.

SO here goes!

With regards to David Blands TAX SEMINAR/WEBINAR post. The first point id like to make is that
I gave Dave my permission to make that post, WITH THAT SAID, there should have been NO problem, PERIOD!

I understand that I did not say this upfront and some of you may have felt the freedom to express your distain for the
type of thread it was. BUT I quickly let it be known that I gave Dave my blessings to post, and at that point there should
have been NO MORE problems.

Second, I was pretty flabbergasted at the ugliness in which Dave was treated. He is not a fly by night jump in make a post
and run member! Dave is an original member of the OLF, he's been here longer than most, Dave goes back to the first year of existence.
To treat him like a opportunistic salesmen is just flat out wrong -and- unacceptable. His treatment was so far from what the OLF is about that I
wondered if I were mistakenly on some different forum.
One where nobody cares about the other person.

Whatever happened to one of the FEW AND SIMPLE OLF rules, "Be kind"
There certainly was not much kindness spoken in Dave's thread,. anything BUT.

Regarding bumping the thread, this is where it got real ugly. I just don't understand the problem. Many people bump threads.

I don't want to sound like the "ruler of all" type, most of you know me, and many of you know me personally, and you know that
-THAT- is not how I am.
But with that said, I will always reserve the right to have the last word here with regards to how the OLF is operated. In other words, if its ok with me ITS OK PERIOD.
Furthermore, PLEASE BE NICE to each other! This seems to be an often forgotten OLF rule.

This goes for constructive criticism, commenting on peoples work, how they do things, etc. There is a nice way to say most anything, there is also
a mean spirited and vile way to say it too, and THAT is not the way of the OLF.

Thanks
Lance

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Well said Lance.

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

Lance, there is yet a simpler rule. If a thread offends you or is not of interest, drive on as there are always many more of interest to read and participate in.

Lance,

I followed the "Be Nice" rule. I did not post what I really wanted to. I felt it was overtly commercial! I am a new member so I am VERY cautious about what I post.

I would suggest the following:
1. A statement to the effect of "Approved by Lance or Brock" in a post such as that.

2. A separate section for such postings.

I have seen many postings from sponsors for new gages, gigs and the like that sound like "Come to my Website and buy something from me, please!" Hence suggestion No. 2

I like this forum very much. You guys are doing a great job! Instead of B!TCH!NG we should be offering solutions to the things We are B!TCH!NG about. Just like we do when some nubee (like me)asks for advice!

Sorry for the sailor talk!

Well said Anthony!

Robert, you are new enought to have not seen any of the "in thread sales" that we allow our OLF sponsors to run.
We have no intention of changing that.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Yes,That was well said Anthony. That is exactly what I do.
Just move on

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

Lance I really don't feel that I have anything to apologise for in relation to this latest incident, but I certainly do feel that I am in line for one.

If Dave wants to drum up business perhaps he should look at taking a seminar himself on how to promote a product without irritating the crap out of people. For mine, Dave was just too forthright, reactive and arrogant in his approach for that situation to go anywhere but south. In fact in some instances it is my opinion that he was just down right rude and I found his comments to be misleading a touch nationalistic and a little aggressive and assuming.

I remain totally unconvinced of any relationship what so ever to the broader OLF community between TAX chat and guitar building and cannot understand how this topic made it to the main page. But, like you say it is your forum and you make the rules, however I would have thought that contribution to the community and the broader knowledge base would at least buy a member some right to voice an opinion when they are annoyed by a certain development that they feel detracts from their experience here at the OLF.

As I made clear to Dave, a lot of us come here to escape the spam (unwanted advertisements and promotion)in all it's many and varied forms that seems to bombard our lives these days from every direction. The point here is that I think we need to be careful about what is to be promoted at such a haven, wood yeah, tools etc oh yes please as THEY ARE on topic and of interest to the broader community but Tax??

Anyhow, like you say, tis your forum so you can decide what you like but I think a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided had the situation been considered more carefully and had Dave reacted with a little more grace towards his fellows.

Regards

Kim

[QUOTE=LanceK]
I gave Dave my permission to make that post, WITH THAT SAID, there should have been NO problem, PERIOD!

[/QUOTE]

Tsk,tsk...all that shouting is not very nice.

Dave is one of the really good guys, and never seen him as an opportunist. He had good article in ASIA. He has done the tax thing for years. Some with alot of post, but not many year probably don't recall those. He has done service like other sponsers here who off tips, goods and other information we may or could use. If Lance gives the OKIE DOKIE, you may feel like was wronged or whatever, but your wrong, Lance gets last word and like it or not that is way it is. Hope this doesn't drive on more true old timer awway. I don't come around that ofter anymore because of this stuff, ie mario and others. To bad, as one of the first year guys some changes haven't been to the good. Lance will always have my support and if he says wrong here then wrong here if ok here then ok. Don't want to read the post or what is going on then change the channel and don't read the post. If don't do that, cant feel wronged. Dave doesn't need to apologise for anything to anyone. Get over it

[QUOTE=larkim] ........ I really don't feel that I have anything to apologise for in relation to this latest incident, but I certainly do feel that I am in line for one.......[/QUOTE]
Kim,
I read that thread, and I can't agree with you. I'm sure you think I'm wrong.
I encourage you to ask one or more people you trust to give you an honest opinion.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Steve,

You are correct, I feel that you are totally wrong. People whose opinion I trust and respect have already been in contact with me privately lending 100% support to my position.

With that, having already said my piece, please accept my assurance that my position shall remain completely unchanged regardless of how others may see it. I will not be drawn to say any more on this matter other than to one party, and that is no one who has posted here today.

As Lance said and I have already acknowledged it is HIS forum and his rules that matter, not mine. If anyone else wants to restate that point to me, please feel free, but you all now know with complete clarity where I stand.

Cheers all

Crystal Kim

It certainly isn't wrong to have an opinion about a post here. No one ever said it was, but when we (myself included) speak up and let the rest of the members right from the top down know that we don't agree with a specific, in my opinion non related topic and also one that is trying to sell us something, we get slapped for it.

I'm trying to teach my children that if they don't agree with something they can tell me and we can talk about it. I think that we as adults can do the same.

I don't know Dave at all, I'm sure he's a nice guy with great accounting skill as well as the knowledge required to help people with their taxes etc...and maybe he is not opportunistic but he is certainly a businessman who is not just looking to be "nice" and give away what he knows, he would never be able to feed his family if he were only nice. He is trying to sell his wares, I went to the web page and it was all good (not of interest to me) but it was all there in the hope that I would purchase his tax package.

An initial post at the top of the thread that Lance and Brock have granted Dave a limited "sponsorship" for his tax products would have certainly stopped all of this.


I certainly understand that this is Lance's forum, but I certainly feel like he has allowed us all to have some ownership in it as well.

Lance, I like you and what you stand for but I can't agree with

[quote=LanceK]In other words, if its ok with me ITS OK PERIOD. [/quote]

I will not be told what is ok, I'm an individual and if I disagree our "freedom" certainly allows me to voice it. I was very very clear in what I said in the first thread in question and I did not attack Dave in any way, I only expressed my opinion. I didn't even mention Dave's name

Here are my comments:

I've come into this rather late and really, by posting to it, don't like that fact that I bump it up further.

I too was annoyed by this thread, being of International flavor, yes I still pay taxes (and a considerable higher rate than most of you Americans) but don't really care about someones webinar on small business tax tips.

Nothing in this world is truly free. Everything has a cost including coming to the Olf for guitar building advise. The cost today was this thread, loosely (and I use that word loosely) related to guitar building.

I posted a thread in the Off Topics section about building greater OLF community, all around guitar building and started a community book exchange just to help build community here at the OLF. That was related to guitar building as well as uplifting the OLF community and trying to make it stronger, Still, I posted it in the off topics section because it was not directly related to luthiery, just as tax tips are not directly related to luthiery.

I don't really want to beat the dead horse to much more, but maybe a separate section for this type of stuff would be a good idea. They made a dedicated forum for off topic stuff as well as the Michigan Luthiers what ever (I've never looked in that forum, I'm not from Michigan) so maybe a commercial forum is a good idea, than commercial endeavors could go there and we could keep the guitar building strictly on this forum.

If I can't express my disagreement in a civil manor as I have done here, than I certainly don't see myself being here much longer.

This is not a dictator run forum right?

I certainly agree that we need to be nice, but that doesn't mean that we need to be silent if we disagree with something.

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[QUOTE=larkim] With that, having already said my piece, please accept my assurance that my position shall remain completely unchanged regardless of how others may see it. [/QUOTE] Wow, you are almost as stuborn as I am!   

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

[QUOTE=Anthony Z] Lance, there is yet a simpler rule. If a thread offends you or is not of interest, drive on as there are always many more of interest to read and participate in.[/QUOTE]

not being in the US, I just assumed it had nothing to do with me so I never even looked.

did I miss something?

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Would you uys just CHILL. What is the importance of the subject. Does it matter enough to cause such acrimony among us?

I don't see it the same way as you, Lance. I respectfully disagree with your opinion...yet I still love you like a brother. Let's not forget that when ideas or policies are questioned on the forum. There is a true brotherhood here and when we begin to see folks being castigated for expressing honest and valid ponts then we're in trouble. Frank and blunt comments that are fact-based and have valid arguments behind them are too often declared mean-spirited without even considering the idea itself. Quite honestly, that's why we lost Mario from our ranks. It's also why I may choose to leave soon as well. I come from a background where critical thinking is honored and cherished. Progress is made when people are free to express their ideas. Here, we are beginning to see a dictum that it's better to be "nice and wrong" than to be "honest and right". Lance, I was shocked to see your pronouncement that all that is OK will be defined by you. I also thought I was on another forum!

We certainly have had some spirited debates lately. Most of them ended in the threads having been locked eventually and that in itself has been disturbing. Anthony gave a wonderfully simple piece of advice... drive on by if one is offended or uninterested by a particular post. For me, I do it all the time when I'm uninterested in a particular post. If on the other hand, I disagree with something, I feel compelled to put forth information that supports a different position...isn't that what a forum should be? If we are denounced for doing this then we don't belong here. If all we want are mindless, smiling, nice robots who consider searching for truth and fairness as a secondary priority then all we have is fodder for a cookie-cutter society whose members will look to others to tell them what to believe.

Bottom line on the issue of allowing commercials on the Main Discussion Forum...you took an uncharacteristically heavy hand on this. For the future health of the forum, I hope your are right. If you're not, it might be too late once you find out. My advice, FWIW...set up a poll on whether commercials should be on the "Main" or a "Commercial" section. I actually think that a commercial section could be a good thing and even produce additional revenue if managed properly. I'm willing to accept whatever our membership feels is right. I also believe the members will appreciate a chance to be heard.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Lance,

I apologize to you. In being as brief as I was, I offended. I am sorry. I meant to say what JJ has said so succinctly.

I visit the sponsors. I buy from a few. I use the auction as I assume some of the proceeds help the forum. I use the "Active Topics" button and I read every one. One day I will be able to scrape together enough money to buy the membership to OLF. I like it here.

If you added a commercial/advertisement section I would spend as much time there as on the main forum. This is because the sponsors make the adds so informative.

Again, I am sorry for offending. managing this place must be a nightmare and a labor of love. I thank you for creating such a repository of information and a gathering place for students and their mentors.

Robert

I probaly shouldn't chime in here: I have no idea what went on in that thread, as soon as I saw the topic,I never opened it--just not interested in tax info.
I come here because the info and ideas are widely varied, legitimate, and open. I love the echange of knowledge and most importantly, I love the inside track on new products that are offered. I am NEVER offended by folks selling or promoting items--I see it as a possible opportunity. If I'm not interested, I click my back button and move on--I never think twice about it again. My time to hang-out here is limited, and I like to ake the most of it.
Did I mention I love it here?

Wait a minute!!! Why close the thread? Were we just supposed to read Lance's post and not reply? I believe these responses have been honest, fair and even nice!

Please don't run away from honest expressions.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=Rod True]
This is not a dictator run forum right?

[/QUOTE]

Well, duh...
Any criticism of the 'OLF Prime Directive' (Generation of cash flow for the anointed is good.) will be dealt with most harshly.

Wait till the approved Viagra ads start appearing.

I can see both sides of this situation.
On one hand: this is indeed Lance's sandbox and we need to respect his rules, whether we like them or not, or take our ball and go home.
On the other hand: I totally agree with JJ in that disagreements are where much knowlege is gained.
What I don't think is acceptable is personal attacks. They have happened on at least two of the threads lately. One of which I had the unfortune to be involved in. When these attacks happen there is no longer a discussion happening. The person making the attacks looks like a child and the person receiving the attacks often feels compelled to respond (which can be less than pleasant).
I think many of us (I put myself in that "us") type a response way too fast and our emotions get in the way. Before long it turns into a gradeschool "I know you are, but what am I", kind of debate. And that helps nobody.
My suggestion, for what it's worth, it to type up a response in something like word. Sit on it for awhile, re-read it, (hey, even check the spelling while you are there), and if it still looks like what you want to say, post it. I've done this a time or two and found myself saying, "nah, let it go" and never posting because it won't gain anything for the good of the community.
Bottom line, I think we all need to be better about thinking before we hit that send button.

This place is called "The Official Luthier's Forum" and I think that title says a lot. Places like these are created by the vison, effort and blood sweat and tears of individuals and in part are policed by them with what they see as the values that matter most to them. For that they get my uttmost and undying respect as more times than most it places them in "lose-lose" situations and as with all of us they have a life too.

But if these things have life and meaning then as the title says they belong to the people that contribute to them and as with most "children" places like this grow and become more than just the creations of the parents. Otherwide this place would be the "Official Lance Kragenbrink Forum".

So for what it's worth, my view is to tell it as you see it but in ways that you would want to be treated yourself. Sometimes people overstep the mark but in balanced and healthy environments that is tolerated and dealt with as a normal occurrence by the members and individuals know when to 'fess up and apologise. Sanitise it too much and it becomes meaningless.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue]There is a true brotherhood here and when we
begin to see folks being castigated for expressing honest and valid ponts
then we're in trouble. Frank and blunt comments that are fact-based and
have valid arguments behind them are too often declared mean-spirited
without even considering the idea itself. Quite honestly, that's why we lost
Mario from our ranks. It's also why I may choose to leave soon as
well. I come from a background where critical thinking is honored and
cherished. Progress is made when people are free to express their
ideas.[/QUOTE]

I've had two threads go south, and JJ responded in each of them. Each
time I was actually humbled by the way JJ continued to respond to me
respectfully, and I learned from his disposition.

I honestly wonder if this is all worth it.

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