Official Luthiers Forum!

I can see both sides of this situation.
On one hand: this is indeed Lance's sandbox and we need to respect his rules, whether we like them or not, or take our ball and go home.
On the other hand: I totally agree with JJ in that disagreements are where much knowlege is gained.
What I don't think is acceptable is personal attacks. They have happened on at least two of the threads lately. One of which I had the unfortune to be involved in. When these attacks happen there is no longer a discussion happening. The person making the attacks looks like a child and the person receiving the attacks often feels compelled to respond (which can be less than pleasant).
I think many of us (I put myself in that "us") type a response way too fast and our emotions get in the way. Before long it turns into a gradeschool "I know you are, but what am I", kind of debate. And that helps nobody.
My suggestion, for what it's worth, it to type up a response in something like word. Sit on it for awhile, re-read it, (hey, even check the spelling while you are there), and if it still looks like what you want to say, post it. I've done this a time or two and found myself saying, "nah, let it go" and never posting because it won't gain anything for the good of the community.
Bottom line, I think we all need to be better about thinking before we hit that send button.

This place is called "The Official Luthier's Forum" and I think that title says a lot. Places like these are created by the vison, effort and blood sweat and tears of individuals and in part are policed by them with what they see as the values that matter most to them. For that they get my uttmost and undying respect as more times than most it places them in "lose-lose" situations and as with all of us they have a life too.

But if these things have life and meaning then as the title says they belong to the people that contribute to them and as with most "children" places like this grow and become more than just the creations of the parents. Otherwide this place would be the "Official Lance Kragenbrink Forum".

So for what it's worth, my view is to tell it as you see it but in ways that you would want to be treated yourself. Sometimes people overstep the mark but in balanced and healthy environments that is tolerated and dealt with as a normal occurrence by the members and individuals know when to 'fess up and apologise. Sanitise it too much and it becomes meaningless.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue]There is a true brotherhood here and when we
begin to see folks being castigated for expressing honest and valid ponts
then we're in trouble. Frank and blunt comments that are fact-based and
have valid arguments behind them are too often declared mean-spirited
without even considering the idea itself. Quite honestly, that's why we lost
Mario from our ranks. It's also why I may choose to leave soon as
well. I come from a background where critical thinking is honored and
cherished. Progress is made when people are free to express their
ideas.[/QUOTE]

I've had two threads go south, and JJ responded in each of them. Each
time I was actually humbled by the way JJ continued to respond to me
respectfully, and I learned from his disposition.

I honestly wonder if this is all worth it.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I didnt read this thread since it dodnt sound like anything I was interested in.

I do believe in treating people like I would want to be treated myself, and I am so thrilled that I found a place where other luthiers were willing to share tips and tricks that I actually paid for a years membership on this forum after only a couple of weeks of reading these threads.

Thanks to all for sharing in my obsession!

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Reguards,

Ken H

I think some people are forgetting that this isn't a charity or a public institution, this forum is a business. Like Google, they're providing a free service in order to sell advertising. Now, I like Google and I like the OLF and they're both great resources in my life, but if I don't like the way either chooses to place their ads or treat their advertisers then I have no more right to tell them how to run their business then I have to tell the guys I bought my car from how to run theirs.

I think Lance and Brock are doing a great job with the forum, and that job is to provide a good enough free service that the advertisers get a good return on their investment without alienating too many users or advertisers. It's a tough balance, but it's their business how they do it.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Note that I'm not being antagonistic above, I think ad-driven free services are the best business model since...well, anything...and I think that you guys have every right to make the great service you're providing into a business venture. Heck, I would!

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

[QUOTE=LanceK] I honestly wonder if this is all worth it. [/QUOTE]


Hang in there, Lance.    Five or six renegades out of 1300+ ain't bad. Although we all lose it occasionally. I wasn't really part of this discussion, but I have been in the middle of some . It will pass and it is definitely worth it for the majority of us, probably for all of us. The good from this forum far outweighs the bad. More people just means more rules, unfortunately. Most of the time we are pretty good at self-policing.    Why I remember back in the good old days when I made an inflammatory post and before anyone responded, Todd Stock pm'd me with a rebuke . I could feel the slap from Arkansas, and I immediately edited the offensive post out. I appreciated Todd for that, cause he was right and because he pm'd me. I'm an old man but I haven't learned it all. Disputes will and must arise as we're merging 1300 personalities here and 1300 points of view. There's nothing wrong with that, we just have to to be civil and decent to one another. The answer is simple and has been stated numerous times: Be nice and think before you post.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Well,

I guess I'm gonna chime in here as this kinda thing has been bothering me for some time. So much so that I left for a while. Though I love the OLF.

Yes, it's Lance sandbox, but when we pay our $125 subscription fee, doesn't it (in some small way at least) become our sandbox too? What I'm saying is you can't have it both ways. Perhaps the rules need an overhaul.

It ain't a forum if there's bugger all debate, we may as well sit around singing kumbia. A forum is a place for debate and discussion, not hand holding. Respectfully and within reason.

I've heard Lance talk about his Lord on a number of occasions over the years, but Serge gets told to tone it down. And I'm not putting Lance down here, he's a great guy. But there does at times seem to be double standards, and that's not cool.

I guess this is where Brock will chime in with the final word, and say "this thread is now closed" which to me seems utter BS.

Fiery Debate on Luther topics-ALWAYs
Personal attacks-NEVER
Should be made rule and if violation, subject is closed.

Hesh it's called "Cabin Fever" after a very long winter.
Time for everyone to get outdoors and enjoy a breath of fresh air. Clears the brain.   

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

when dave's original post appeared, i did as anthony z recommends for those who are disinterested, i passed on to the next post of interest.

then this thread appeared, and i did the same again. but it grew, and grew, like a tumor, so a day or two ago i was prodded into seeing what was going on.

i was somewhat dismayed. and further dismayed to see it still growing today, so i was prodded into finding the supposedly offensive thread in the archives.

after reading all of both threads, i am puzzled how supposedly cognitively capable adults can waste so much time generating so much superfluous verbiage.

no wonder some serious folks decide to depart.

[QUOTE=Bobc] Hesh it's called "Cabin Fever" after a very long winter.
Time for everyone to get outdoors and enjoy a breath of fresh air. Clears the brain.    [/QUOTE]

Take a look at this

Cabin Fever is right

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

*sigh*   

I miss Serge, he would've know what to say here.

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Joe Breault
Merrimack, NH
Perpetual novice

I would like another post from lance here. I and Im sure many others dont
want to keep losing olf friends. Not only because of the great deal of
knowledge they have to offer, but they are the ones who seem to make
this forum have character. I know everyone has seen the loss of that since
Serge left.

There is something to be said about the "topics not dealing with luthery
forum. " simply put as many others have stated it is for topics not dealing
with luthery.Perfect for tax type topics. That should have been the right
place for that post in my mind. There we go we dont even need a
commercial forum. Perhaps making that companies website come up first
on google when you type in tax would be the absolute best idea.

We all need to start to get along better before all my friends are gone.
Nobody wants to be told what is ok and not ok. I think that there is
something to be learned from everything. I am sorry for my comment in
the thread, But I never would have made a comment if it was on the off
topic forum. I thank you Lance for everything you do, this is a great place,
I have learned that guitar builders are some of the nicest people out
there.