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I would be very interested in hearing what neck joint you are using on your steel string guitars; dovetail, bolt-on, spanish heal, Doolin adjustable, something else?

I would also love to hear your approach to neck construction.  Do you attach the neck before or after finish?  If you attach the neck early, do you radius the fretboard prior to attachment or after?  Are you installing frets prior to attaching the fretboard?

On the guitar just I just finisher I rough-carved the the neck and heal prior to attaching to the body, and glued the fretboard to the guitar before shaping the radius, which was done with a handplane.  My neck joint was a mortise and tennon bolt on neck, and then lost my nerve at the end and added glue to the joint.

Finally, can anyone tell me what the joint is in the photo below?  I assume it is some version of a spanish heal but am not sure.

Thanks, Doug

Doug,

That photo is of the work of Stefan Sobell (his Martin Simpson D guitar) and if you delve around his website further he describes it as a form of Spanish heel joint. Drop him an e-mail if you want to know more - he's a very friendly guy.

I do bolt-on adjustable necks by the way.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

dovetail mortice and tenon, finish separately, only sensible way for me, radius before gluing, fret after neck installed.

given the prevalence of bolted necks these days, why did you use glue. seems rather redundant.

Any steel string needs to be jointed. The spanish style is horrid to reset a neck.
My personal preference is Dovetail
john hall
blues creek guitars

[QUOTE=tippie53]   Any steel string needs to be jointed. The spanish style is horrid to reset a neck.
My personal preference is Dovetail
john hall
blues creek guitars[/QUOTE]

John, correct my if I'm still asleep at the keyboard, but aren't there several very successful builders who use a bolt-on butt joint for their necks? No glue or tenon of sorts.

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Aoibeann

I have a feeling John's point was that it is a good idea to use a system (like his traditional dovetail) that allows a reasonable easy way to remove or adjust the neck should it become necessary; unlike the Spanish style neck joint where the sides are inletted into the neck, and there is no easy (at least not unobtrusive) way to separate them once the guitar is assembled. Right, John? I use barrel bolts in a tenon, but my next guitar will have a butt joint with inserts.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

lillian, taylor, who popularized the style, used a simple bolted butt joint during their first 25 years or so, and i don't know how many thousands guitars. some five years or so ago they came out with their new style still using bolts, but also incorporating a fb extension tenon, etc. a number of factory operations and who knows how many individual builders have adopted their innovations over the years.

I really like a Spanish heel construction but agree that it is not realistic to be able to reset the neck. The normal way to deal with a neck on a spanish guitar is to plane the fingerboard and refret. I have some historic guitars (I collect them) in which the fingerboard has been planed down so much the fingerboard is almost down to the neck.

Having said that, the neck design that has the best of a Spanish heel while still being very repairable is the heel that Jose Romanillos uses. The takes a traditional Spanish heel neck and instead of a small 2mm slot for the sides, he cuts a slot (basically a dado cut) that is 10mm at the bottom and 12 mm at the top on the inside so that the sides rest against the heel as they would in a 2mm slot but then on the inside a wedge is inserted into the slot and glue is only applied to the inside surface (not facing the sides or heel) and the wedge is driven home.

The advantage is that if the neck ever does need to be reset or replaced all you have to do is take off the back of the guitar, chisel out the wedges, adjust or replace the neck and put in new wedges. IT is the most effective method I have seen for dealing with a Spanish heel. Another problem when constructing a Spanish heel was having to fuss with getting the slot for the sides just right as it was too easy to crack the sides when fitting them in the slot if too tight and you have an ugly gap at the heel if it was even a hair too loose.

just a small clarification of the info presented above; some martins are now being built with a hybrid straight m&t using one bolt and glue. go figure?

The Martin Mortice and tenon has been around a long time. The spanish heel is an old style and while some builder will use it , it make repairs most difficult. The joint neck is still the best for long term use. If the neck can be removed and reset it allows the guitar to be repaired and used a long time.
   Pulling a back to reset a neck is such a difficult and costly repair. I agree the neck joint method is not as important as that it is done correctly and the neck joint is solid.
   The stresses of a steel string will over time cause the block to rotate forward and to establish the proper geometry the neck needs to be adjusted once the saddle is to the point it no longer can transmit the energy to the strings .
    If it were easy anyone could do it
john hall
blues creek guitars.
PS I am still a Dovtailer

Shawn:

When I read about the Romanillos wedge neck joint, in Courtnall's book, I thought it was a great idea.  What a waste to wrestle with a 2mm slot to fit sides.  Understanding that the idea was not new to him, can you tell me how this joint is accomplished?  Do you saw the two slots, chisel out the waste and then make a wedge to fit?  How important is the matching up of the face of the wedge to the inside of the joint at the neck?  I know you can just trim the outside for neatness.  I have lots of other questions about his methods( I've read most of the posts.), but this really interests me since you brought it up.  If your think this would hijack the thread, PM me.  Thanks

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=Doug O] ... dovetail, bolt-on, spanish heal, Doolin adjustable, something else?

I would also love to hear your approach to neck construction.  Do you attach the neck before or after finish?  If you attach the neck early, do you radius the fretboard prior to attachment or after?  Are you installing frets prior to attaching the fretboard?

[/QUOTE]
Doug, you're probably a bit frustrated with the lack of definitive answers here. Your questions are all good, but the answer to each one is "yes." Each of the descriptions above is done by someone on this forum. Each has advantages and disadvantages, and none is necessarily better than the others. Now, I don't have a lot of hands-on experience in neck building and setting, but my humble advice is to just pick a system and go with it. Ask questions if you're uncertain about a specific step you're about to take, and I'll bet you'll get a lot of good information here. All responders may not agree with each other, but out of that you'll get enough solid information to proceed with some confidence. Every newcomer to lutherie, including myself, starts out wanting clear directions on the right way to do each step in building. The maddening thing about lutherie is that there is no single, "right," way to build a guitar. Ya just gotta pick one and go with it.

I appreciate all the discussion on the subject.  As I originally posted, my first guitar is glued and bolted M&T.  Yes the glue is redundant, but when it came time to commit it seemed that since I had to glue the fretboard extension anyway, adding glue to the M&T seemed like something I'd only regret in maybe a decade or so.

I'm very intrigued by a truly adjustable joint and will most likely give it a go on the next couple of guitars.  I plan to have an approach that is imediately adjustable from the outside of the guitar.  I suspect the Frank Fords quote that one joint is as good as another, provided the neck is firmly attached, is spot on.

The tapered dovetail seems to be viewed by many (mostly non luthiers?) to be the only acceptable and/or respectable joint.  But does is offer any real benefit to the tone or structural integrity of the finished instument?  I really doubt it.  But since I've built a total of one guitar, I have to admit my opinion isn't worth much.

Thanks to all for the input.

Doug

Waddy,

The way that Jose does the wedged Spanish heel is that the face of the slot that is up against the side is the same as if it were 2 mm and is flush with the line of the side. The opposite face of the slot (that is toward the tail, not the heel) is 12mm at the top of the slot and tapers to 10mm at the bottom of the slot.

That means that if the side is ~2mm the the wedge is 10mm thick tapering to 8mm. The wedge is driven toward the top and is then cut flush with the heel as with a spanish guitar the back is attached last.

While Jose is retired from active building (he still finishs 1-3 per year to keep busy), he is always thinking of new jigs and ways to improve the class. Even his son Liam who now runs the class never knows what new tool or jig Jose will bring to class.

Last you he showed up with a jig that was made of two flush cutting saw blades with a 1mm thick block fastened as a spacer between the 2 blades. To this was attached a saw handle. In that way he could quickly saw parallel saw slots 10mm apart and then chisel out the excess. One of the people that were familiar with the tapered wedge method asked how come the slots are not tapered?

At that point Jose pulled out of his pocket thinner tapered wedges that when placed facing opposite directions formed a parallel block from those wedges so that 2 wedges could be driven together to fill that parallel gap and still work as a wedged joint! What Jose was trying to refine was the need for one wedge to be just he right angle so that no one point would bind...by patterning his 2 wedges to work much like machinists parallels, it was more forgiving but just as stong.

Just and the bolt on and mortise and tenon joints were developed to be easier to fit than a dovetail joint, the Romanillos joint is trying to fix the weaknesses of the traditional Spanish heel design.

I hope that I am as creative at 73 as Jose is...

I am reading his book now.  He is definately a major storehouse of knowledge.  I remember reading about his guitar in back in the '93 "
American Lutherie", and have been interested in learning more about his guitars and philosophy for a long time, but have only recently gotten to the buy some wood and build a guitar stage.  I am basing my first on his plan from the Bream Guitar.  I was a little surprised at the smallness of the body.

The opposing wedge method makes a lot of sense.  I assume he glues the faces of the wedges that do not touch the sides.  Is that right? 
Fish glue of HHG?  I know from the archives that he was using fish glue for some places.

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=Shawn]



The advantage is that if the neck ever does need to be reset or replaced all you have to do is take off the back of the guitar, chisel out the wedges, adjust or replace the neck and put in new wedges. IT is the most effective method I have seen for dealing with a Spanish heel. Another problem when constructing a Spanish heel was having to fuss with getting the slot for the sides just right as it was too easy to crack the sides when fitting them in the slot if too tight and you have an ugly gap at the heel if it was even a hair too loose. [/QUOTE]

Shawn -

I learned how to set a neck from David Schramm's instructions. In this procedure, where your sides are inserted in the 2mm slots without gluing, then taking the back off gets you back to the stage of construction before the neck angle is set to begin with. The neck angle is set during the process of gluing on the back, and that would be the same during re-gluing. So, this is conceptually easier than having to chisel out a wedge.

But, what if the wedges were held in place by a screw through the heel block, rather than glued? Could this simplify the process, or is it not worth worrying about given the possibility that the neck will never need a reset?

I really like the Romanillos guitar - that's the pattern for my next tries after the workbench is clear of present work.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

[QUOTE=Shawn]
...The advantage is that if the neck ever does need to be reset or replaced all you have to do is take off the back of the guitar, chisel out the wedges, adjust or replace the neck and put in new wedges. ... [/QUOTE]

(Marlon Brando's Capt. Kurtz voice): The horror....the horror.

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Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

[QUOTE=jtkirby]
Shawn -

I learned how to set a neck from David Schramm's instructions. In this procedure, where your sides are inserted in the 2mm slots without gluing, then taking the back off gets you back to the stage of construction before the neck angle is set to begin with. The neck angle is set during the process of gluing on the back, and that would be the same during re-gluing. So, this is conceptually easier than having to chisel out a wedge.

But, what if the wedges were held in place by a screw through the heel block, rather than glued? Could this simplify the process, or is it not worth worrying about given the possibility that the neck will never need a reset?

I really like the Romanillos guitar - that's the pattern for my next tries after the workbench is clear of present work.[/QUOTE]

Jim:

I don't think I have any business answering your question, but I surmise that the wedge joint, because it is very strong, is designed to give the side/neck junction additional strength so the back does not have to bear the full pressure of the string pull against the neck pushing the foot against the back.  The neck is a long lever, and the pressure of the foot against the back with floating sides in a slot must be significant.  It makes a lot of sense to me IMHO.  In the Courtnall book, I think, it was indicated that he got the idea from some early guitars he had studied with a similar joint.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=WaddyT]

 I remember reading about his guitar in back in the '93 "
American Lutherie", [/QUOTE]

That would be the Spring of 91 "American Lutherie" (#25).

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

One of your questions that has not been addressed here yet is whether or not to finish the neck separately from the body and then attach them later.

I have recently finished my first french polish guitar and I can tell you from experience that if this is the method you choose, you definitely want to attach the neck after you have finished it. Getting an adequate supply of finish into the joint on the top of the guitar along the sides of the fretboard and also doing a clean looking finish on the neck joint its self is very difficult with a french polish. By no means am I saying that it cant be done, but it is difficult.

If you plan on spraying the guitar for a finish, then I dont think it matters as much since you can tape off the parts you dont want a finish on and spray the rest. I have seen others still finish the neck and body separately even if it is a dovetail joint and a sprayed finish.

For a while, and perhaps even today, Gibson (Epiphone) used a bolt on method for their acoustic guitars that resembles the type that is used on electric guitars where it is bolted from the back of the guitar - completely through the heel block and then into the neck which has no heel on it. This requires a plate on the back of the guitar to cover the bolt holes, but boy is it easy to remove the neck if you need to! My first guitar was an Epiphone 12 string that I purchased in the early 70's and the neck is still in great shape after all these years. I wish I could say that for the sound of the guitar, but the neck joint is in good shape.

I have used both the M&T bolt on necks and the dovetail. The M&T is definitely easier to do, but I always have it in my mind that if the barrel nut should slip for whatever reason later in time, it will mean a lot of work to correct it. Also My worries are more from compression of the woods in the heel of the neck and the heel block than it is from worrying that the heel block would roll.

 

 

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Reguards,

Ken H

for a steel string guitar i would always finish the neck separate from the body, regardless of finishing method used. it is just so much simpler to spray and buff separate pieces, just as it is easier to apply a hand finish. plus the almost assured need to reset the neck during the guitars lifetime is so much easier to accomplish if they are don separately since the finish retouching is so minimal.

a sprayed finish should be far neater as well, without unsightly finish buildups in the angles of the heel/body, fb extension/body, and bridge/body joins.

granted, french polishing a classical is tedious in those angled areas, but using a small fad and a little patience gets the job done.

as to the execrable epi screw on joint a la fender, i've had to reset the neck angle on so many of those.... the only good thing to be said about it is that shim stock is cheap and it is easy to do.

Thise time around:

fingerboard slotted, tappered, bound and fretted (left two frets out for future positioning with pins). The neck blank (laminated)= simple butt-joint bolted on. I cut the relief at the heel with a table saw. Then it was cut to profile. After that I added the truss rod. The truss rod 'splint' came next. Then came the inserts for the bolts and then the tapper.

I think I will always fret the fb seperately now.

The only thing I found a bit trickier with the butt-joint was to floss the cheeks. The neck will wander a bit more without the tenon there to hold it into place... I put in the bolts... It helps...

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Adendum: I always finish seperately. If the cheeks are well flossed and the fit is air-tight, it will look perfect. You can just glue the FB extension.

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...