Official Luthiers Forum!

Yeah, I miss that edit button...

Of course, I meant, "...only one of many in a broad palette..."

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Todd are you sure that what John said was in response to what I said?   [/QUOTE]

Sorry, Hesh, I didn't mean that what John said was in response to what you said. I meant that I was adding to what John said, and I was also responding to what you said. I have a habit of writing convoluted, run-on sentences that can be confusing to decipher.

I also didn't mean to question your right to express your opinion, but simply to differ with you and express my own point of view.    

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

The comment John Hall just made about cloth is eye opening to me. I really listen to you guys who've been repairing over the years. Thanks.

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"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

[QUOTE=nickton]   The comment John Hall just made about cloth is eye opening to me. I really listen to you guys who've been repairing over the years. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Yup- me too!
Cloth reinforcement is not as 'craftsmanlike-looking' (to me) as a nearly-invisible spruce cap, but if it works better, I should consider it for the future.

Now let's sit back and think about all the various cloth samples we can use for this! Handmade raw silk, carbon fiber, kevlar, unobtanium....

Cheers
John

   I use a cotton patch that is soaked in titebond. Then I work it to set aroung the joint and bracing. I cut the patch about 1 inch round.
   Simon Patrick guitars use a top piece of spruce as a support. I have gotten to the point that when I see them in my shop I can tell you 90% are loose. I repair them by overlaying the cotton support and have not had one fail.
   The patch makes the joint very homogenous
john

Thanks, John.
I think I'm going to add this(cloth reinforcement) to my building techniques.

[QUOTE=Bruce Dickey]
Don't swallow any camels while straining at a gnat.[/QUOTE]

SCRIPTURE!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

I guess this isn't an answer to the debate, but here goes...I make 'em tight (a throwback to my dovetail cutting days), but have always wondered when I put the glue and go-bars to 'em..."hey, this thing is glued full-length to the top and glued at the half-lap joint and has a cap glued over the lap"! So, the tight or slightly loose question hits me the same as the "square-groove" golf club controversy several years back...everyone was clamoring over the "advantage" square grooves in the clubhead would give over the standard angular grooves...I remember thinking that if your game is at that level you didn't need an advantage and if your game was at my level there would be no advantage since I could hold the clubhead and hit the ball with the grip and not improve! Okay, I'm babbling...but I'm stuck in a hotel and it's pouring down outside and I don't have much going on! Apologies! I make 'em tight...

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

Okay, how 'bout this: The cloth flexes with the bracing, so everything moves together and doesn't split, well-fitted or not. It might be a weaker joint overall, though.

Or: The potentially stronger wood-capped joint may not have been fitted well to begin with, so the usual stress and movement causes a split. Another possibility is that since a well-fitted, wood-capped joint is very stiff it can't flex enough to stand up to an accidental blow or crushing pressure.

Just thinkin' out loud...

    I can't say for sure but I tend to think the issue for failed caps is more with the way the top is clamped and the fact the forces at that point are not static.
     I have seen 3 different ways to cop this joint , the simple top over lay    the cloth patch and a wood circle.
     I have never had to repair the cloth nor have I seen a split at the X with the cloth. I have seen a split X with the wood button .
     I have not seen a split X with the top cover piece.
I feel the movement that causes the failure the most is when the tops sink from humidity and then the shear force of the flexing finds the weak spot and pops the glue joint. The cloth is more flexible and can withstand that flex. just an observation
john hall

Good one Hesh!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

[QUOTE=tippie53]    
I feel the movement that causes the failure the most is when the tops sink from humidity and then the shear force of the flexing finds the weak spot and pops the glue joint.
john hall[/QUOTE]

Thanks, John. I think a lot of us were fixated on the 'impact abuse' idea; I wasn't thinking about humidity changes, which can certainly pull the top strongly.