Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello folks,
I have been lurking around this forum for awhile (unregistered) and have run into a situation that I can use some experienced advice on. I have an old parlor guitar (A George Bauer) that has a major intonation problem; whoever built this thing (and yes, this is original to the guitar) joined the guitar at the neck at the 13th fret (so what, I hear you thinking, that's normal) but then they placed the bridge at the same distance as from the nut to the 13th fret instead of to the 12th. It is almost as if the guy who made it was so accustomed to joints at the 12th fret he didn't notice that this one was joined at 13. Makes for some interesting notes, let me tell you! Anyhow, It's ladder braced, about 100 years old, brazilian and spruce, and it sounds great in first position if you aren't playing with anyone else... Is it worth it to move the bridge (and all the work involved as well as the cosmetic issue of the old bridge position showing up) Or is there some other way to correct the intonation like a secondary bridge, or is this guitar doomed to be played slide only? I don't want to replace the fretboard as it has hand cut inlays, otherwise I would consider it. Anybody run into a similar issue? Advice?

How does it do if you capo up at the 1st fret. Does that make it come in closer? It won't fix it but it will bring it half as much closer to right.

--------------------

This idea will fix the problem but possibly look a little strange. Remove the fingerboard and correctly position it for a 12 fretter. You could do something creative with the area between the nut and the headstock, (What, I have no idea).John How38488.551724537

_________________
Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Your neck has to be at least 1/2" off - that WAY off when it come to intonation. Oh BTW - Welcome to the OLF !

Id say you would have to do one of two things, move the bridge forward to place it in the correct spot - or and this is a BIG OR - somehow - add width to the bride, fill the current slot, and re-slot to place the saddle in the correct place. Hmmm -- you's got a problem for sure.

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

No, the intonation is about 1/2" off (which is exactly the distance between the 12th and 13th frets... so I suspect that whoever made this thing was not having his best day and made the bridge position equivalent to the distnace between the nut and the 13th fret... No other Bauer guitars that I have seen have this particular issue, and I have never seen one quite this bad before... in fact, it never even occured to me that a luthier/guitar maker would be this boneheaded! I know intonation can be off a bit, but this was a mistake from the get-go!) and so when I capo it at fret 1, it makes it about 1/2" off in the other direction....

Can you post some pictures of this old beast?

_________________
Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Geaorge Bauer made parlor guitars around the 1900. He also took over the manufacture of S.S.Stewart banjos for a while. I have never seen or could not find a reference to any guitar he made other than 12 fret parlor guitars. My suggestion is to examine the guitar carefully. I am willing to bet that the fingerboard is a replacement, probably perchased fretted or pirated of of another instrument, perhaps a very long time ago. This has more credence for me because of your discription that the bridge placement is original.

_________________
Mark Joy

mjoy Guitars

i have run into bridges which were glued out of position, but never to this seemingly very organized, deliberate extent.

have you checked the position of the bridge plate? is it   in the correct position? if your supposition about the cause of the anomaly is correct, it probably is, and there should be room for new pin holes if you elect to move the bridge.

if the bridge plate is not in the correct location, removing it is a difficult task, but not impossible task. do you have the experience in doing this sort of repair work?

is the bridge wide enough that it will still cover the existing pin holes if you move it forward the requisite amount? if not, how much wider would a new bridge have to be to so so? would it look unsightly at the required wider width?

given it's age, it probably has a shellac finish of some kind? have you determined what the finish is is? if so, it will be fairly easy to repair, even if the color matching is difficult.

if the answers to these questions is positive, i would move the bridge forward to the correct location

however, i would also strongly recommend filling the existing pin holes, preferably using the stew-mac repair cutter, or a plug cutter. hard wood for the plate and spruce? for the top.

if it is in fact br it would be worth a bit of money to repairers and restorers for the wood alone.

something you should also consider: if the rest of the body is sound would be a suitable candidate for a new top.

OK... I have now uploaded some photos... the reason I think that not only the bridge placement AND the fretboard are both original is because of the following: there is absolutely no physical evidence of a new fretboard and there is an identical fretboard on a virtually identical Bauer at this link: http://www.billsbanjos.com/Bauer.htm
Except you will notice that it is joined at the 12th fret, not the 13th as mine is. Personally, I think it was some sort of assembly line issue, and maybe Martin was starting to join their guitars at the 13th fret at that time, and so we all know how it is getting people who work for you to change their routine... I think whoever this guy was putting this thing together was not exactly a braintrust. A technician, yes, because all the joinery and details are very tight, but I think somebody threw him a curveball with a longer neck. The back of the headstock is also marked with the Bauer stamp, as well as the label in the guitar.
Here are links to the pics: (If nothing else, just look at these and shake your head)
http://gallery28.biz/images/Back.jpg
http://gallery28.biz/images/Front.jpg
http://gallery28.biz/images/Body.jpg
http://gallery28.biz/images/Neck.jpg
http://gallery28.biz/images/Headstock.jpg
http://gallery28.biz/images/Soundhole.jpg

It would be convenient to think that it's a newer or replaced fretboard, but I don't believe it is... compare the one on the Stewart site and mine.

Also there is one on Ebay at this moment that has a replacement bridge and if you look at the photo ist looks as if there are filled holes where an old bridge used to be...
heres the link to that one
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2385& item=7322303133&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Check the proportional distanc from the nut to the body, and then from the body to the bridge, on all the instrument links mentioned. Those proportions are about the same on each instrument. None are remotely close to having a correct scale. It appears, and this is just a guess as I have not performed calculations, that the scale would have to join the body at about the 9th or 10th fret to have any hope of playing in tune.

Do you wnat to play it or have a historically accurate instrument. It is probably going to be more valuable monetarily as a collectors item, which means original regardless of playability.

You can build or buy (cheaper) a better sounding and playing one. Send the pictures to Gruhn and pay for an appraisel if it's worthwhile to you. If you're sure of originality, clean it up and leave it alone.

Just my .02

_________________
Mark Joy

mjoy Guitars

I think Mjoy gave some good advice. You FIRST need to determine whether you want to keep it original or Play it. Seems like you can't have it both ways. Me I am a player so I don't collect guitars that can't be played. BUT...that's just me. Otherwise, take it to a good luthier and get that baby playing in tune!

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

i looked for the ebay listin but it has apparently been removed.

the photo clearly shows the bridge to be out in deep right, almost to the wall.

you have a range of options described here. now you have to decide.crazymanmichael38488.7191666667

Thanks for all your input! Yes, I suppose you are correct when you say I should not start messing with moving the bridge, repairing holes unless I just want it to be a "player", and that I can't have it both ways.... like many things in life! I have meausured things one more time, and the intonation is 3/4" off (bridgeplate/bridge is 3/4" too far toward the bottom bout of the guitar...) and had a thought, let me know what you think... First, I can't move the bridgeplate because then the bridgeplate would be directly coincident with one of the ladder braces. Of course. Why make things simple. Anyhow, what if, since the corrected intonation would be directly over a brace, I took one of those selmer bridges and (with a bit of felt on the underneath) treated it as an archtop bridge? Would that cause huge structural problems? I mean, I do know it's a 100 year old guitar and silk and steels are the only thing it's ever going to see, but I don't know about the stress issue if I do that. THis is leaving the current bridgeplate intact, of course, and trying to think outside the box (and have things both ways!) THoughts? I sure do appreciate all the time everyone has taken to help me out with this... THanks again!

What about this fix. Couldn't you replace the fingerboard with one of a different scale? You'd have to measure nut to bridge and figure in your compensation, then make a fretboard to match that scale. This way you would fall on the 12th and not have a difficult fix at the top of the headstock.

if they built the thing with a brace where the bridge plate should be(given the scale length determined by the fb, they were having a uniquely bad day, or someone was using too much (then perfectly legal) wacky backy, or coke, or laudanum or ls... er... no, that hadn't been invented yet! regardless of what mind expanding or supressing substance abuse they favoured, this thing is as messed up as they were.

seems you have no practical route to a decently playable instrument retaining that fingerboard other than a new top.

putting on a fb cut to a scale determined by the bridge position would work but might result in a wonky looking board since a fret may not be at the neck/body join.

the joys of elderly instruments built by messed up folks.

Hey couldn't he send it back and claim "warranty issues"? I'm sure they would be happy to drop what they are doing and jump right on the repair. What's that, been dead for 50 years? Why should that matter? They should still stand behind their product. Man, what's the world coming to when a simple thing like death is used as an excuse to get out of doing someone's warranty repair? Geeeeesh!javascript:AddSmileyIcon('')

Allaprima...If all you do is move the bridge to the correct location, all your parts are still original! That's the most important consideration in its appeal to collectors (and historians), so I'd say don't replace the fingerboard--the original looks really good, and it would probably be ruined if you take it off. As for the bridge plate, leave the current one where it is. Once again, that saves its originality, helps reinforce the top, and probably won't hurt the sound 'cause this ain't gonna be a cannon, anyway. Since a brace would help support the relocated bridge, all you should need is a semi-thick hardwood veneer (say, hard maple or rosewood) to support the string holes.

Yes, doing ANYTHING to change this beast reduces its collectibility; but making an instrument playable, while keeping its original parts, is the most forgivable of many offenses that could be perpetrated here.

I think that, obviously, the bridge was originally glued the first thing on a Monday morning!

Carlton