Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi all you OLFers.    A plug for one of our distinguished members.

Well yesterday I posted my Redwood/cocobolo OOO
Today I strung up my Lutz/Mac Ebony OOO (PICS later)
Both guitars have tops guided by Ervins principles. Both were started
before the class. Both are braced differently. One of them had braces
before the class and when I got home I carved them all of, rethicknessed
the top and rebraced it. The sides of guitars were built differently. (One
conventional and one with Epoxied double sides)

Even though I just strung up both of these guitars, clearly they have the
best tone of ANY GUITAR I have ever built. WITHOUT QUESTION!!!!!!   I am
NOT tooting my own horn, but Ervins!!!! Clearly his approach to thinking
about construction works!!!   He gives you an entire new thinking of how
to design and build guitars. You just aren't shooting in the dark. I knew
his guitars were awesome, but I wasn't sure if applying his philosphy
would make better guitars in my inexperienced hands. Well I was happily
suprised.

These 2 are the best sounding guitars I have ever made and the sad part
is......Neither one of them are mine!!!!! They are commissions.

I know Ervins course is expensive, but for me it was well worth it. Before I
was just building based on plans, not that there is anything wrong with
that. All of us have build excellent guitars that way!!!! Before I had no
knowledge on how structure could lead to predictable results. I think
Brock said it well last year. He advanced his thinking by 30 years!!!!!

Ervin has asked us to limit the amount of info we share about the details
of his course and I fully respect that. Even if I could it would be hard to
explain without experiencing the course as a whole.

If any of you ever get the chance, take the course. If you just extract 1%
of Ervins knowledge, you WILL build better guitars.

Thanks

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Need that edit button
It is Ervin Somogyi

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

The one thing that gets me about this Somogyi fellow, sure his guitars sound great (or so I'm told). But he ain't much into sharing what he knows, unless you've got the $$$ to grease his palm.

Sure, he needs to make a living. And I'd love to do his course. (adding the cost of an international airfare to the cost of his course + accomodation, Well, I'd rather buy the Harley Davidson I could get for the same $$$)

The whole point of places like the OLF is to freely share. I wonder if he's ever picked up a tibit of info in places like this and felt guilty.

I was excited to learn there was going to be a forum here for him to share his stuff. Turned into one great big marketing exercise, with not much info on how to improve what we do. I felt pretty dudded.

And no one who's done the course will step up with specifics on what they learned. Because he's asked you all to keep it to yourselves.

Sounds like we're turning into the haves and the have -nots.

[/rant]

The above rant is mine, and mine alone, and is not reflected buy the owners/moderaters of this site. Anyone wants to sue me over it, be my guest....

Paul
You point is well taken. I agree with you completely.   This is a place to
share and learn from each other. I do feel conflicted because I have
gained SOOOO much from all of you here on the OLF. Without this
wonderful forum, I would never have been able to make a single guitar. I
feel that this group is like a close knit family of friends that all have a
common goal to build great guitars. I have shared bits and pieces of info
that I have learned from Ervin, but to be honest with you it would be hard
to give details since taken out of context of the whole course they would
be a bit confusing. Ervin has learn a lot over 30 years of building and he
is sharing that experience. Ervin teaches a way of thinking more than a
particular technique.

Hopefully Brock will chime in. He is a moderator of this forum and a
former student of Ervins.

I didn't want to upset anyone by posting this thread
Sorry

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Sorry Andy,

I wasn't upset with you, or trying to ask you or anyone to break your word. I really want to do this course too, but never will.

I just find it a bit perplexing that there is some good information out there that seems to be exempt from the rest of the sharing that goes on here at the OLF.

What I think some people don't understand about the class is that it's not a bunch of secret recipes. In fact there is really only one piece of information, one number, that I feel like is taboo to mention outside of the class, and that number is given only as a good place to start in our own journey of building. Ervin leads discussion after discussion and gets us thinking very critically about tone and what we can do to shape it in the final instrument. This is all from pretty well known principles of acoustics and physics... there's nothing new or revolutionary there that you couldn't get from other freely available sources.

At least that's what I got from the whole experience: the confidence to apply and trust my own critical thinking about what makes a guitar sound like it does. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, even though I may now know how some change might affect the final instrument I still have to figure out HOW MUCH it will change the final instrument. That in and of itself should keep me interested for a long long while to come...

[QUOTE=azimmer1]
Ervin has learn a lot over 30 years of building and he
is sharing that experience.
[/QUOTE]

Too bad the 'Edit' button is gone.
Surely you meant 'selling' rather than 'sharing'.

[QUOTE=PaulB] The one thing that gets me about this Somogyi fellow, sure his guitars sound great (or so I'm told). But ...... (see entire post above).
[/QUOTE]
Paul-
I agree 100% with your point of view.

John

[QUOTE=lex_luthier] What I think some people don't understand about the class is that it's not a bunch of secret recipes. [/QUOTE]

I think, given the exclusive culture surrounding Mr E's courses, no one really has any opportunity to "understand" much at all about them until the blindfold is removed upon arrival at the bat-cave.

I'm with Paul, I do believe all these endorsements from our respected OLF members whom have had the opportunity to experienced "the new way of thinking" I do trust their assessment that this courses is very interesting and very beneficial. So, quite naturally I to would really love to join in.

But the truth is, given financial constraints and geographical restrictions I can not so this secret squirrels stuff is all a little frustrating for me and I am sure the rest of us who, realistically, will probably never have the opportunity to participate.

So no attack here on anyone, just find it all a bit of a tease really ....

Oh man this is good, I mean reeeeeeealy good.

Oh really, that good?

Oh yeah baby, it's gooooood.

So...eeeerrm, what is it???

I can't tell ya that!, it's a secret.

Oh, OK thanks for the conversation.

Your welcome.

Cheers all

Kim

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
Most of all though my sense is that Andy being the incredibly good guy that he is is simply very grateful to Ervin for what he has learned that has resulted in better sounding guitars the first time out after the class. Andy is excited and I would be too if my first guitars after taking Ervin’s class turned out great so perhaps we should/could be excited for Andy as well?

Thanks
[/QUOTE]

That may be true Hesh, but I'm a jealous guy, you can tell by the green text so he's gonna get it for teas'in me.

Hey Andy, nothing personal here mate, I am excited for you my friend, just a little frustrated when seeing the carrot dangle.

Cheers

Kim

[QUOTE=lex_luthier] there's nothing new or revolutionary there that you couldn't get from other freely available sources. [/QUOTE]

Then why won't anybody talk about it if it's freely available information? Sharing information has done nothing but help the luthier business of guys like Cumpiano, our own Robbie O'Brien, Mayes, David Schramm, et al. As a matter of fact, I would argue these guys are held in higher esteem and have benefitted because of their willingness to share and help. I understand Ervin's point of view. I just think in an open forum like this people get frustrated when they hear all the "I got a secret" type comments. It serves more to divide (especially when many will never be able to afford the class) which is the exact opposite of what this community should be. Sorry Andy, I'm not taking a dig at you, I think I'm just trying to iterate the frustration felt by many everytime Ervin's info is brought up. Here's a question, don't give us Ervin's magic number...what are all YOUR magic numbers???   

Cheers!

John   

[QUOTE=John Elshaw] Then why won't anybody talk about it if it's freely available information? [/QUOTE]

I don't mind talking about it. Is there something in particular you're curious about?

Thanks Hesh.
you are right on the point. I am excited about the better sounding
guitars, and I have Ervin to thank for making me use my own brain to
make some sense about a guitar.
We were never given any blueprints for a perfect guitar. Nothing like that
exists. If it did we would all have it and all of our guitars would sound
the same. That would be a huge mistake. What might sound great to
me, may sound aweful to you. I have no desire to build guitars like Ervins.
I want my own voice that I like.

Most of us have built from traditions going back to the early Martin days.
Ervin teaches you to think outside the box. We looked at all kinds of
bracing from Kasha to ladder braced to X braced to everything. With any
bracing system you can build a great guitar. We were taught to think
about how braces work, and how they impact tone. None of this thinking
is proprietary. We were were taught about brace stiffness. Any engineer
knows these principles. I certainly didn't.    The cube rule became very
eye opening to me. The cube rule is certainly not Ervins rule. By thinking
about stiffness and bracing, you develop a way of looking at how a guitar
top moves. Again this is not new info. He just put it all together in a
clear course. Most of the time when we asked questions, we were forced
to answer them ourselves by thinking them out. That is what he teaches.

Common questions were like.
Parabolic bracing...is that a good idea? What is the purpose of scallops in
bracing....Is that a good idea?   Why are braces located where they are?
How thick should a top be? What is too stiff. What is too weak.

His course is no secret recepie. I learned how to think and answer
questions myself. Based on this, my opinion is that scalloping makes no
sense. Why have dramatic changes in stiffness. So I eliminated them in
my construction. Other love scallops and it works for them.

Again, no surprise, we had to learn these ourselves. We tapped tops with
stiff braces and carved them until they were almost gone and listened to
the top through this process. This anyone can do. Personally I am still
confused about what to listen for. I just dont have enough experience,
but I am keeping notes and developing my experience.

Based on this, I learned that in MY experience I was overbuiilding MY
guitars, so I lightend them up. It worked for me. It is not that lighter
guitars are better, but that my other guitars sounded a bit stiff when I
compared them to other guitars I liked better. Before the course, I didn't
know why my guitars sounded different.

Ervin has described his entire course in Guitarmaker Magazine.

I hope this clarifies things a bit.

Sorry if I upset a few of you. That is clearly not what I wanted to do. I
love this place and consider it a second home!!!!!!

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

1.618 ????

Here is something else Ervin taught us....again no secret.
KEEP NOTES!!!!!!
Now I have a database for all my info from brace height to top thickness
to stiffmess to wood type etc. I photograph all of my guitar inside and
out. If I make a guitar I like in the end, I want data on that guitar so that I
might reproduce it predictably. I NEVER did this before the class.   He
taught us to keep track!!!!
Also, we flexed hundreds of pieces of wood. All felt different. It shows
that too pieces of wood are a like!!!! That is no surprise!!! So should we
make each top the same thickness???    Based on the fact that all wood is
different then we shouldn't make all tops the same thickness!!!! It is this
thinking that he teachs. Again nothing is a secret. Well if all wood is
different, find a way to quantify the differences is each piece of wood so
you can compare!!!!!!   I never thought of this before. Now I keep track so
I can compare an apple to an orange.

Does this make sense.
It is this critical thinking that is so exciting about Ervins thinking.

I get this same excitement anytime I read one of Allan Carruths post. He
is always so thought provoking. His post have a lot of knowledge and
thinking behind them.

Sorry for the long posts, but I love the critical thinking.

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Need my edit button

No two pieces of wood are alike

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

What does the golden ratio have to do with things? Maybe the golden
triangle? 36 degree angles of an isosceles triangle? Nah too elementary I'm
sure...

So what's your number mean there Larkim?

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Actually it is
1.6182

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

[QUOTE=azimmer1] Actually it is
1.6182[/QUOTE]

It's actually 1.618 0339 887..., but who's counting

John, you can stake me out across an ants nest but I ain't talk'in OK, OK, it was just a blind stab in the dark but that is one freaky number man and I bet you can work it into lutherie from every angle, if it looks right, it is probably Phi.

Cheers

Kim

Given the sensitive nature of this I hate to even chime in, but for those of you who think he is only in this for the bucks your absolutely wrong, and you are doing him and yourself a huge disservice.

Ervin has spent a lifetime learning this craft one slow painful step at a time, he has written extensively for Guitarmaker magazine, and (I think) American Lutherie as well, he frequently speaks at conferences. He generously shares his knowledge. Quite a bit of his knowledge is easily accessible if you choose to look for it.

Ervin's guitars ** START ** at $16k and he has no shortage of business, so for him to take as much time as he does to even offer to teach younger, less experienced builders his system of thinking is extremely generous. To my knowledge NONE of the other industry icons is doing this -- for any price. Yet some of you choose to throw stones.

And all he asks in return is that you compensate him for his time and that you do not devalue the information by trying to pass it on piece meal to others. That really doesn't seem like a lot to ask.

I have said it many times before. It would be impossible for any of us to give a full accounting of what you learn in his voicing class. It is not a simple set of guidelines, it is an entire building philosophy. It is a completely new way of looking at building.

I know it seems like we all go there and drink the Kool-aid, but you have to think that if we all come back saying the same thing ... then there is probably something to it.

His prices are not that high. Considering what it costs to take a week long "build a guitar class" with Frank Finocchio, or Charles Fox, Ervin's prices are very much on par with those classes (entirely different subject material, but the point is what is the value of a week of intensive training). I have never once regretted the investment spent on live instruction from a master builder. Sites like the OLF are great, books are great, but to me nothing is as valuable as live instruction.

If you can't take the class due to financial or logistical restrictions fine. There is no problem with that, but don't throw stones at the man simply because he asks to be compensated for his time and passing on a lifetime of knowledge.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Does anybody have any "roundabout" number for what this class costs? 

_________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Louis Hector Berlioz

Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

Christian

[QUOTE=Brock Poling]
Given the sensitive nature of this I hate to even chime in, but for those of you who think he is only in this for the bucks your absolutely wrong, and you are doing him and yourself a huge disservice.

If you can't take the class due to financial or logistical restrictions fine. There is no problem with that, but don't throw stones at the man simply because he asks to be compensated for his time and passing on a lifetime of knowledge.

[/QUOTE]

Hey Brock,

I don't see any REAL stone throwing directed at Mr E or anyone else here, more a little venting off of some of the frustration associated with not having access to the great knowledge he has bestowed upon others.

I am certain that all who have posted in this thread respect Ervin Somogyi as a true master of our craft. And I am sure that we all would do what we could to book into his class if it were at all within reach.

Long live Ervin S I say and may the knowledge in his teachings become more readily available to us all.

Cheers

Kim

Hey Kim, have you checked out his web site? He has several articles which (I'm guessing) cover some of what is in his class.

Nothing can replace first hand experience. Apart from that, all we can do is read till our eyes pop out of our head.

Take a gander here for some "secrets"

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Thanks Brock
Well said. I have the utmost respect for Ervin. He has made me think
outside the box and learn for myself.
He doesn't spoonfeed his students. He get them to do the critical thinking
and problem solve.
The direction I take after his class might be totally different than what Brock
did after his class. There is no magic bullet, just information to guide ones
thinking about how to build a guitar.

Again sorry to confuse some of you.

Chansen. I think it was 3K for the full week which included staying in his
wonderful shop where you could sniff all that Brazillian!!!!!!!!!

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com