Official Luthiers Forum!

God bless my wife. She's endured so many hobbies of mine that she's about to pawn me off to aliens. Anyway...

I found some affordable Indian Rosewood B grade Back & Sides Set at Allen Guitars on a fluke. Mind you, I typed in "affordable" for my first project. I in no way intend on using B grades for the future (I'm spoiled when it comes to exotics).

The sides/back were only 35 bucks. Is this something worthwhile for my first project? Allen's also offered the same graded wood in a 3 pack for $90.00. Your input is appreciated.

Question: Do you guys radius your fingerboards by hand or do you have someone do it for you?

Also, how many of you are "old schoolers" and do more carving than routing?

How many inlay artisians out there? Looks like a challenging approach!

(Told ya I'd be a regular contributor!)

Jim

 

Jim,
while making a guitar from scratch is very rewarding I always syggest looking at a serviced kit for the first build... just to get the feel how everything works, after that.....GAME ON!!!!

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Update: I've been getting some strong suggestions to begin with a kit. As a beginner, I know heeding warnings is beneficial. Thanks for the suggestion. Will check out kits this week.

JS

I personally radius my own fingerboards. It is easy to do with a radiused sanding block.

I would agree with Peter on building from a Kit first. Your forst one will teach you a world of things and having the kit helps you get all of the materials together before you start.  You can build a good sounding guitar from woods that are inexpensive, but do you really want to devote that much time and effort into a not-so-great looking guitar?

If you decide to build from scratch anyway and use what you can find that is cheap, you will find enough information here on this forum to help you get started.

The first thing you will need is a TRUSTED set of blueprints to build from.

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Reguards,

Ken H

I'm completely new to this so my suggestions should be taken with a grain of salt.
But.... I think if you are getting a screaming deal like that you may as well just get that EIR, find your self an affordable top and all the other necessities and go for it. Even if it's disastrous you'll learn a ton and have experience in almost every aspect of this. I haven't quite started my first, but I bought everything individually from Bob at RC Tonewoods. The price has been good and he has been extremely helpful so far and given me plenty if tips. I can't wait to get started!!

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Louis Hector Berlioz

Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

Christian

Hey, the wood you found seems perfect for a first guitar. I can see some
help with kit for your first if you have no prior wood working experience. I
have some shop experience, and am in the midst of putting finish on my
first. I leaned sooo much bulding mine from scratch. Many things that will
help me with future guitars. As for the fretboard, I use a radius block, and
hand sand it.

   I do recommend a kit. As a supplier I can bend you wood . There is an issue and that is what is the wood like? Just because it was not expensive doesn't mean it won't be costly. If the wood is sush a low grade, it may crack or split on bending.
   This is a great place to get info. I have some tutorials on my site that may have info you can use. Also I do inlay. There are lots of good luthiers here. I will say that you need to get as much info as you can. There is more than one way to build. Tooling and skills will increase as you grow into the hobby.
Good luck
john hall
blues creek guitars

Jim - I built my first one from a serviced kit from Martin, with prebent sides, prejoined top with rosette already done and soundhole cut, braces pre-shaped, neck all done except for gluing fingerboard to neck. I have mixed feelings about whether that was too much done to start with. It gives you the opportunity to see how the box goes together, but it satisfied my overall curiosity for about 0 days - I was into the next build, from scratch, before the first one was done, and I've never gone back to touch up some of the glitches on that one - I was never very attached to it compared to the ones done from scratch.

So, based on my own experience, I'd start closer to the beginning, and go ahead and jig up for things like bending sides, etc. Whether you go with a kit or put the parts list together yourself is pretty much a choice at that point. I've built 2 from unserviced kits from LMI since I started - the people I was building for did it that way so they would know up front what their cost was
(I'm still practicing - no real sales yet), plus I got to keep the plans and DVD's. It is exciting to open the box and have all the parts there.
You do get a little price break on the kit compared to individual parts. LMI provides a plan and a good DVD from Robbie O'Brien (steel or nylon). I don't know what John Hall provides in terms of instructional stuff. Stewart-MacDonald's instructions are decent, but I'd put in the effort to build a form rather than using their cardboard inside form. Martin's instructions basically stink.

If you want to put it all together yourself, you can look at LMI's kit information online and snag the parts lists to use as a checklist.

Jim

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Heh - I didn't answer a single one of your questions

My first few were steel strings, and the fingerboards were either already done (kit), or I let LMI go ahead and radius them and cut the slots. I'm mainly working on classical guitars now; no radius, and I have a slot cutting sled for the tablesaw that works fine. (See jig, tools and techniques section - link at top of page). I'll have to address the radiusing issue this summer, though.

I rout the ledges for bindings and purflings. I have a Bosch Colt that I got for Christmas - before that it was the Harbor Freight unit, which I have 2 of (Much hate for these on the forum, but I have never had a second of problem with either one.) On the HF units, I use the rabbeting bit set from Stewart-MacDonald. The Bosch has a decent offset bearing attachment and I had success just using that with a straight bit.

I'm still at novice stage for inlaying. I'll probably stay that way, as I'm not much for heavily adorned guitars.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Well Jim

Looks like to me you are pretty set on a scratch build process. Depending on your woodworking skill this can be a very rewording experience. Unless I have missed it somewhere you have not said what you woodworking experience is.

This may be too late, but I would have looked at the cost of wood in a different light. Indian Rosewood is pretty reasonable even in 3A sets. If your think about your labor as a valued commodity at let say for discussion $10/hr. You are going to have at least 150 hours in your first build. Then in my opinion working with less than 3A wood is not the best choice because lower grade woods have flaws grain run-out, knot holes and many other defects that will make working them more difficult and can cause structural issues down the road. So you see a $30 set of IRW may cost you another $30 for a set to replace the one the chipped out so bad you have to re work it and the 3-5 hours you lost. Trust me it cost less to work with good woods I did not say expensive, I said good.

I am not at all knocking Allen. He builds beautiful guitars and sells good materials.

[QUOTE=MichaelP]
Unless I have missed it somewhere you have not said what you woodworking experience is.
[/QUOTE]

In my best defense, I'm a master scrollsaw artist specializing in exotics. I've rethought the scratch process and am pricing out some kits. Good advice on the graded woods. I really do not want to replace a lesser grade (and waste money/time).

As far as a scratch process, I'll keep it fun and do something with a play uke for my 2 year old daughter. But for me, I'm going for a learning process, not a toy making process.

Thanks for your wisdom you guys!

Jim

 

How about joinery and joinery fit-up. That is where most newbies have there biggest issues. A kit will make some of this easier. I got my start on a Martin OM kit The wood and componets were very good but the instructions were very bad. I downloaded Stewart MacDonald's dreadnought kit instructions to use as a process guide as well as "Tradition and Technology" by Cumpaino & Netlson. I have to say the "Tradition and Technology" was the key to explaining why I was doing what I was doing. Each luthier has their own way of completing a specific process. But the finished goal is the same. seeing many ways to perform a specific process is a good way to understandthe task and the best way to complete the task.

I built a kit, but altered it to suit my tastes (changed the neck profile, carved my own braces, used wood binding, different purfling, different headplate, add a volute, etc.) And, of course, I ruined the serviced (pre-bent) sides that came with my kit and had to order others, and then bent those on a hot pipe...so in reality, you "might" end up doing more with a kit than you think you will.

I think the differences between a serviced kit and a scratch build is mostly the amount of time, and jigs you'll need to have in order to get much of the work completed: a side bender or pipe setup, a saw/files/etc to handle the neck carve, larger power tools, joinery jigs, proper chisels for brace carving - and tons of other stuff, etc.   In other words, money. Bending sides isn't too hard with the right equipment. Joinery isn't too hard with the right tools, planes, etc. Crafting your own bridge isn't too difficult with the right sanding apparatus, etc. Slotting your own nut isn't impossible with the right nut files, etc. The learning curves aren't too steep, it's just dollars and cents much of the time. Frequently, a kit means less upfront expense in tools and jigs while you try and figure out if guitar making is something you really want to pursue. If it is, you really haven't hurt your learning curve that much, and you'll also know what kind of build you'll want to pursue for your second guitar.

Don't get me wrong, none of this is cheap. Luthiery is a never ending process of purchasing "something else" you don't have, but need, in order to pursue "something else" you don't currently do, but would like to.

That said, if you can, find a local builder and see if you can work with them for a bit...clean up their shop for time spent peering over their shoulder, etc. It's invaluable, and you'll learn tons.

My .02

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]

Not to disagree with my pal Michael but Cumpiano's book just did not flip my switch. It's very dated and even the author now builds with some substantially different methods like the use of an outside mold as opposed to a building board. I have the book, read it twice, did not personally enjoy it at all, and I am ready for the incoming that will result becuase I said this....... [/QUOTE]

Not at all Hesh!!!

I use Cumpiano's book, because those methods really suit me. I build at home, with few tools, decent sharpening management and imagination. I also employ other techniques I gleaned from the web. SO far, I have built using two methods, the "Stewmac" method, and now closely following the Cumpiano method.

I might even adopt another one with the third, I think the key to all this is being adaptable, if there is a more convenient way of building.

Sam this is what I ment. I glended from many sources to insure I understood the process and tash and use what worked well for me. But on a first build it is easy to reach IOL (info over load)

I used Cumpiano's book for a lot of my steps. The book is a wonderful resourse for learning how a guitar works. For a beginner, though, I would use the Kinkead book, although I combine many sources for the techniques I've chosen to follow. Kinkead is very clear and very well illustrated.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

whilst there is some wisdom in using a serviced kit for your first effort, mainly relating to the reduced amount of preparatory jig building which may be required depending on the building methodology you adopt, i do not agree with those who advocate the wasting top of the line woods on beginning efforts just because you can afford to spend the money.

there are also reputable wood vendors who also discourage the practice. it is considered a waste of a finite resource to expend it in basic education, when a much more common grade of wood will serve every bit as well whilst giving an end result which will probably be just as sonically acceptable, given the level of building expertise which will be applied.

[QUOTE=Jim68]

God bless my wife. She's endured so many hobbies of mine that she's about to pawn me off to aliens. Anyway...

QUOTE]

Your wife may need more than God's blessings once you get started on guitarmaking

Jim

You could build from scratch but also add some of the components that are typically the most challenging from suppliers like JOhn Hall (Tippie). During some of my first builds I would pick up a Martin neck from John, bridge, slotted fretboard and he will even sell pre-bent sides if that is a challenge. JOhn can probably help you out with a rosetted sound board as well if the rosette process is more than you want to take on. It doesnt have to be to kit or not to kit. You have many good options and John is a great option all the way - he is helpful, knowledgable and resourceful. That's a lot of "ful"