Official Luthiers Forum!

Thanks Hesh...you are absolutely correct sir....and very observant to boot!!

Cheers,
Greg

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Gwaltney Guitars

Well, if I don't learn how to be a good guitar builder on this forum, maybe I will have learned how to be a well grounded, gentleman of logic and humility from HESH!  Kudos to you Hesh.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I've been reading this post with much interest. Very well said by all posters...And I do agree with Hesh and Todd on this one. I was in Michael Bashkin's shop a while back and he showed me a new technique for making very unusual wooden rosettes. He specifically asked that I not share this information, as he wanted to make this a trade secret because it was so unusual. I respect the fact that he probably spent hours and hours trying to perfect this, and one blabber of my mouth to a forum would give thousands of people the same knowledge.

I'm all for sharing knowledge and helping each other out, but if any of us wants to seperate themselves from the pack, they must develop something new to be different. The class that Ervin is selling is the kind of information that will help you seperate yourselves from the pack, and to me would be well worth the cost of admission.

I think Ervin is nice enough to offer a class. And the way I see it, if it helps to advance your knowledge 10 years, then you just saved 10 years of waisted time and trial and error. Image the amount of wood that would have been waisted? That cost alone is worth the cost of admission!
Tracy

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Tracy
http://www.luthiersuppliers.com

And don't forget... the core of his concepts are freely available in old Guitarmaker and other luthier publications. Just go buy some back issues and study what he says. Get every article written by him. He is a wealth of information on many topics -- not just voicing.

This info isn't a secret. He talks about it openly. You just have to look for it.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=LuthierSupplier]I'm all for sharing knowledge and helping each other out, but if any of us wants to seperate themselves from the pack, they must develop something new to be different. The class that Ervin is selling is the kind of information that will help you seperate yourselves from the pack, and to me would be well worth the cost of admission.

I think Ervin is nice enough to offer a class. And the way I see it, if it helps to advance your knowledge 10 years, then you just saved 10 years of waisted time and trial and error. Image the amount of wood that would have been waisted? That cost alone is worth the cost of admission!
Tracy[/QUOTE]

Right on target, Tracy. Any class that offers you the ability to shave many years off learning by teaching you how to learn properly is more than worth what Mr. Somogyi charges for that class. It is a true Master Class. Not talking about certain parts does yourself and the teacher an injustice, since you both paid dearly for the information. There comes a point where people need to pony up if they wish to advance to the next level. Although this is obviously a web site that offers a free exchange of information, it does not mean that all information itself is free. One has to make that distinction. Dues must be payed one way or another.

I meant "Talking about certain parts that you shouldn't does yourself and the teacher an injustice", just to clarify. - Need an edit button on this site.

I've been reading this thread with some interest and wondering when to jump in.

I went to the Somogyi course with Andy. I didn't just go there with him, I went there with him.
OK let me explain. We drove there together from San Diego to Oakland and back. It was the first time I met Andy.

On the way up, we talked bout how we hoped it would be worth the price, both in terms of money and time. It is a pretty big commitment. We had doubts. High praises from past attenders was an important consideration, but we all know that is no guarantee.

The drive back was different. We were both very excited to get back and start building. We felt energized. For the first time had some idea about how to make a guitar sound how we wanted to make it sound. We talked about our plans, the mistakes we made in the past, what we would do different. This lasted for almost the entire drive. Could you imagine being in a car with another builder for 7 hours? It was pretty fun.

We also talked about how to share what we learned. What I think most people don't realize, is that we would love to share everything we learned, so it is awkward and uncomfortable for us not to. Because of our respect for you and Ervin, we don't share too much. Respect for Ervin because he asked and he deserves it. Respect for you because what we learned in 7 days can't be given out bit by bit in this format. We learned a new approach to voicing. A couple of paragraphs here and there wouldn't do justice to a week of lecture and hands on training from a person who has spent a lifetime learning.

It is awkward now. I really appreciate this forum for what I have learned. I also share what I have learned on my own and try to be helpful. I will not share much from that class, unless it is information that is readily available from Ervin's site or other places. As far as pictures of my bracing scheme, who knows when it will show up. If I showed you now, it would only show you what I am doing now. My next guitar will be different because we learned an approach. This approach will very likely cause me to make changes every time I build.
I hope that helps.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

I just want to clarify a couple of things following on what both Todd and Hesh have said. First off I agree with both of you completely. But Kim got the jest of my long winded first statement. That is trying to determine when your work no longer becomes a subset of what you learned from Ervin but rather becomes your own again. I do not all begrudge Ervin or any others for charging to attend there courses, I have attended a number of woodworking courses, on things like timberframing and others and you ALWAYS learn more from true masters than from reading a book. But the delema I find that I would have to wrestle with is that I have shown all the stages of my guitar construction, including my bracing (based on Larrivee/Laskin/Manzer). I just get the sence that if I took Ervin's class I would no longer be permitted to show a braced top to all who have shared openly before. I don't think that I have seen a braced top of Brock's for example. I might have missed it though. But regardless, it is my opinion that Ervin has no 'secret' methods. The things he does with his guitars are probably not that different than what any of the true masters (as he likely is) have figured out in the past, think Hauser, Barbero, Hernandez........etc. Again, I would be uncomfortable being in the position of no longer being able to share once I came back home from the course. I don't think anyone here is asking for a detailed day by day description of what happened at the course, followed by copies of Ervin's handouts, I think what the people what to know, in your case Andy, is things like..."before I went to course I did this but now that I considered what I heard from Ervin I am going try that because I think it make my instruments do this a little better". Now if I heard statements like that, I would be breaking down Ervin's door to get in to his class, because I know that I would get a TONNE more out of being there and hearing it first hand rather than getting anothers interpretation.

So as I said in my first post, this really has nothing to do with Ervin or his course, it really has to do with the philosophy of learning and sharing and how I want to continue in that regard. I agree with Todd, having met Ervin at the last GAL, he is indeed a generous and delightful man!

Shane

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Canada

Thanks Hesh
Well Said
Thanks Steve
Well said....7 plus hours in my car talking geeeeetars!!!!!!!

Showing my bracing, which I already have if you search, won't do you
much good. Actually the 2 guitars after his class have COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT bracing patterns. TWO DIFFERENT SIDE CONSTRUCTIONS.
Both sound better than what I have built before. I learned in the class
how to approach building for guided results. Despite building 2
DIFFERENT guitars in many way, they both came out with what I describe
as a better tone.

Thanks
Love the OLF

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

[QUOTE=Shane Neifer] I think what the people what to know, in your
case Andy, is things like..."before I went to course I did this but now that I
considered what I heard from Ervin I am going try that because I think it
make my instruments do this a little better". Now if I heard statements
like that, I would be breaking down Ervin's door to get in to his class,
because I know that I would get a TONNE more out of being there and
hearing it first hand rather than getting anothers interpretation. Shane[/
QUOTE]

Shane, I actually answered this exact question if you read my response
earlier in the thread.

Keep in mind what changes I have made might be totally different from
the changes other students of Ervins have made. It all depends on what
their construction was like prior to the class.   The blinded listening
experience was wonderful for me. I finally could here the difference in
about a dozen guitars, and I learned likely structural characteristics that
lead to those differences.

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Thanks Andy, and again, please I mean no disrespect. I am only hoping that you will feel that you are still able to post your progresses. That is my fear in all of this, as you have learned you have shared often your stages of development and I hope you are able to continue. For me, I am not really at all concerned that 'trade secrets' or whatever are not shared, that is indeed the perogative of the person holding the secret and all can acquire these if the will to get them is truly there. It is more that once you have learned these 'trade secrets' you find yourself conflicted about what you can post and what you can't......that is a position you were not in before you took the course.

I am sure that one day, after a few builds, I will seek advice/knowledge of Ervin or others, but for me I would really need to be clear about when I could decide for myself what and /or when I could share and what I could not and then it would have to sit well with me. Maybe after these threads, my decision will be easier as Ervin my elect to reject any application I placed!

Thanks again Andy, I think this is an important philisophical discussion and it really needed to happen.

Shane

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Canada

Well, this is a fine mess you've gotten us into!!!

I think y'all are just worrying too much. It'll all come out eventually. Some of it has already, as Hesh indicated. You just won't know it was inspired by Somogyi.

Rampant sharing of knowledge is a relatively new thing in lutherie, and even there it's pretty much confined to guitars. It's really up to the individual or entity if he or it wants to share secrets. Did Gibson show PRS how to build a good single cutaway? Nope, but PRS figured it out anyway. However, Martin shared plenty of information with Bob Taylor on how to set up a factory, and now they're direct competetors. Did this cause Martin to bolt its doors? Nope. From what I've heard, any serious builder can get personal attention and a tour through the factory. Meanwhile, Bob Taylor is paying it forward by freely sharing all his techniques, both in person and on the internet. It's a great thing, but it's not required. We should respect that.

All this free sharing got started when a bunch of hippie-types from the '60's started doing it. They just liked the idea, and had fun talkin' shop with each other. It's since spread internationally. Let's not forget, though, that even among those '60's contemporaries it wasn't always free. Whenever Charles Fox has been building guitars, he's had a school of some sort (one of the very first, too), and charged tuition. Jean Larrivee pretty much started the Canadian guitar boom, but with him, you had to earn the knowledge. Some big names worked for low wages in his shop before going out on their own. The young Richard Schneider spent all his money to get to Mexico and show up, uninvited and unexpected, at Pimentel's shop (no relation to the U.S. Pimentels). He was turned away. He persisted, though, with tears in his eyes (literally!), and was finally allowed to apprentice there. He remembered that experience, and in the '70's just about anyone who asked could apprentice with him. Not long before his untimely death, though, he set up his Lost Mountain school and charged tuition. Why? Well, he was barely scraping by, only selling a guitar now-and-then because they were so radically different. Each one incorporated a new interpretation of Kasha's principles, and took a long time to build. He could no longer take the time to give free advice. Schneider was a genius, though, and it would have been worth every penny to study with him. Talk about a new way of thinking!

I'm rambling here, so I'll just say that my point is that nobody is getting cheated here. Those who paid their money are happy with what they got, and those who can't or don't buy Somogyi's knowledge can eventually figure it out for themselves if they're willing to put in the effort. After all, all the knowledge in Harvard and Cambridge Universities is available elsewhere. You can still get a college-level education without attending college. It just might take a bit longer.

Well Done to All

I think that this has all been one very healthy discussion and has clearly explained valid points on both sides of the fence without once getting personal so we deserve a pat on the back.

As Shane mentioned, it really did need to happen and I believe it has been beneficial in order to allow some understanding where there was only suspicion. I think these 2 pages of clarification have done no harm to Ervin Somogyi either. All in all I see this has been like 2 circling dogs sniffing and growling finally dropping their hackles to wage tails together (That's just for you Andy ) lets just hope it gets no more amorous than that

Thank you all for your input and clarification, long live the OLF and health exchange.

Cheers

Kim

I was thinking the same thing Kim. A good debate. We don't all have to see eye to eye.

It might not have been very apparent in some of my posts, but I do have a lot of respect for Ervin. I am very frustrated that I'll never get to any of his classes.

Maybe he should write a book, so that us foreign types can get a grip on his methods. No hands-on stuff with a book, but it'd be better than nothing.

This debate reminds me of Linux vs. Windows/UNIX/MacOS debate (I am a geek :)). One party seems to think that software should be freely shared and given away for the benefit of the mankind, while the other party thinks that people should get paid for the work they put into the software.  

I don't think people should be "forced" to share their knowledge/work for free. However, sometimes it bothers me when the people who gained a lot from other people's knowledge (for free) will not reciprocate by sharing their knowledge.

[QUOTE=PaulB] I am very frustrated that I'll never get to any of his classes.

Maybe he should write a book, so that us foreign types can get a grip on his methods. No hands-on stuff with a book, but it'd be better than nothing.[/QUOTE]

Hey Paul,

What I said earlier about an interactive live stream Internet course is not too far from reality, the technology is there right now. As more and more people gain access to true broadband at 12meg a second the possibilities are endless.

I see a time in the not too distant future when respected builders, some of whom are members here, will be able to supplement their income and share their knowledge to a very broad audience in this way.

Sure, it will never replace being there, but can you imagine viewing a lecture or demonstration in real time on your PC and then being able to take part in an active group discussion with fellow students that will allow you to ask and hear questions and receive answers from the presenter in real time, and all from your own workshop. How cool is that

And it truly IS already here with us now, the software and hardware are in place today and now it is just a question of bandwidth which is rapidly coming to us all as more and more money is invested in ecommerce.

So Clean up your shops and slick back your hair boys cause you is gonna be a movie star

Cheers

Kim

I attended Jim Krenov's woodworking school in California for two years and there was never any feeling that what was taught belonged to us. Now it is true that alot of what I learned is not easily transfered in a forum like this, but I have taught quite a few people to do hand cut dovetails, wedged mortis and tenon joints, how to make wooden planes etc. Yes, I paid tuition to learn it, but I'm happy to give it away (never have thought much of capitalism). I agree with Hesh, I would never post pictures of someone elses work without permission, but I'll post pictures of anything I've done. Of course I don't know what Ervin knows. Anyway, I can see both sides of this, just thought I would give mine.

                      Peace, Paul

[QUOTE=larkim]
Hey Paul,

What I said earlier about an interactive live stream Internet course is not too far from reality, the technology is there right now. As more and more people gain access to true broadband at 12meg a second the possibilities are endless. 

[/QUOTE]

I don't think we are quite there yet. From the post here about Ervin's class, the first day was sifting through literally hundred different top pieces and flexing them to see how they differ and you were taught what it is supposed to feel like. You can't really do stuff like that in the video.

Also, tapping the top and trying to hear the sound just doen't translate very well over cheap microphone and cheap PC speakers.

However, certain topics can be discussed without being there, as you've noted. But really the touchy feely stuff can't be done yet.

[QUOTE=microsmurf]

[QUOTE=larkim]Hey Paul, What I said earlier about an interactive live stream Internet course is not too far from reality, the technology is there right now. As more and more people gain access to true broadband at 12meg a second the possibilities are endless.  [/QUOTE]

I don't think we are quite there yet. From the post here about Ervin's class, the first day was sifting through literally hundred different top pieces and flexing them to see how they differ and you were taught what it is supposed to feel like. You can't really do stuff like that in the video.

Also, tapping the top and trying to hear the sound just doen't translate very well over cheap microphone and cheap PC speakers.

However, certain topics can be discussed without being there, as you've noted. But really the touchy feely stuff can't be done yet.

[/QUOTE]

My comment above was not really directed at Evin's class but rather at information sharing by respected builders in general. I agree that the touchy feely thang would be difficult to replicate to a point. But I did say that this kind of course would never replace actually being there. I also say that an online course would be the very next best thing, especially for those whose time, money or location restrict normal access.

Further, if such a class were run, it could be done over an extended period, say every Friday at 6pm Pacific central for six month. If a student were to miss a session, they could simply download an archive and catch up only missing participation in the interactive discussion component.

Because of the fact that the course coordinator could control access via password and IP log he could police the transfer of information to only the paying students. His student numbers would only be limited by his bandwidth so the participation rate could be very high with 12meg per second upload. As a course like this would by it's very nature less intense in both time and consumables than an in-house gathering, this kind of experience should cost the participant much less. Add this to the fact that there would be no accommodation or travel expenses involved, it then becomes very attractive to many more than the formats which are presently available.

I see this as a win win, because once a person has been exposed to a particular style or method, they are more likely to follow up with a more intensive full in-house course if indeed they have found value in an online experience.

So you can call all this the ravings of a mad man and that it may be But I reckon you had better get ready for this kind of thing in the future because to me, it is a no brainer.

Cheers

Kim    

Oh, and why the cheap mic??? I use VIOP through pennytel to make international calls, 8c to anywhere and with my quality speakers and a Shure 58 plugged into my sound-card, my phone calls are cheap and HiFi

Like I said, the tech is there now, it is just the bandwidth tis all and it's coming in a fibre optic cable near you.

Cheers

Kim

Dang that edit button I use VOIP not VIOP
VOIP stands for Voice Over Internet Protocol, where as VIOP stands for Very Important OLF Person (Lance&Brock)

Cheers

Kim

[QUOTE=Shane Neifer] I just want to clarify a couple of things following on what both Todd and Hesh have said. First off I agree with both of you completely. [/QUOTE]

Just as long as you agree with ME, Shane, that's all I care about!   

Seriously, though, I appreciate and respect everything you're saying, bro.

I'm also very happy to see that this thread, while it got a bit hot early on, did not get out of hand. Pats on the back all around.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Personally I'm really disappointed that no one on this forum has an opinion on anything.  I would have really liked to see what some of you thought.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Having been there in the long-ago days when we had to fight the big triceritops for the best tree ferns to get top wood, I'll say that we did not start sharing information because it was the 'right thing to do'. We did it because nobody knew more than a few bits and pieces, and we had to get the rest from the other guys! Twenty of us together knew enough to make a guitar.

I have to say that I'd love to take Ervin's course, too, if only see whether his notions are similar to mine. Some are certainly different, but there seem to be two core concepts that we'd both agree with: find a systems approach, and TAKE NOTES!

As for why we share information now; well, I guess it's partly out of respect for the guys who taught us so much, who are no longer here to teach it themselves. I'm thinking of Fred Dickens, in particular, but everybody who's been around for a while will have their own names to bring up.

In the end, it will all come out. Maybe it will even do so before people stop playing guitars and go on to other, 'better' things. I can understand Ervin's motives perfectly, and can only salute him for having gotten organized to set up his course. He didn't have to, and even if the cost seems steep, I'd bet it's a bargain for the participants, and a benefit in the long run for the whole community. Sure, the 'early adopters' will reap more of the benefits, but they're paying the tuition, too.

Alan,
I have tons of respect for you. Thank you for sharing so much with us. I have learned a lot from you.
I think you could teach a course. Have you thought about it?

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.