Official Luthiers Forum!

One of the things that was implied but spoken out right in the original post was if some one finds them self in over their head trying to make a commercial venture out of their luthierie.

I personally stated building in earnest for sale some 7 years ago now. I am a full time engineer in the oil field equipment industry. This is how I feed and provide for my family. There is no way with out building 50+ commissions a year I could provide the income to offer my family the lifestyle they are accustom to with out my day profession.

For the first several years I built only about 2-3 commissions a year. I figured this will be easy to do part time. As my skills and product improved and my reputation (small as it may be) grew, I found it easy to acquire 5-7 commissions a year. Working every weekend and at least 2 hours every night 5 commissions a year was reasonable working one guitar at a time. But any more than that would require that I build more in a staggered batch mode. I liked working on only one at a time. However over the past two years I found myself turning down more and more commissions because my anual schedule is filled. I am at the point that I had to decide to increase my out put. This has me changing how I work. I did not make this decision lightly. My initial intention was to always build one guitar from start to finish. I am now building 2 at a time in an offset batch process. Meaning I work 2 guitars at specific process in a session IE jointing backs, Bracing and so on. One day on one guitar and the next on the other. This has turned a relax evening in the shop into a dedicated work schedule. Don't get me wrong. I still love every minute that I am in the shop. The work is still quite relaxing. But as a small business owner I have to address it as such to stay on schedule. I can't walk away for a weekend as easily as I once could with out paying the piper. And as a lot of you know, Mister Murphy threw me some curves this winter. Those interruptions have put me way behind schedule, just as I was really gearing up my output.

My point is for a new luthier think you can do this evenings and weekends, You most certainly can! However I do suggest you take a good look at how much you can or want to take on. Keep to your limit even if it means you may have to turn down work for a while.

The truth is the biggest cause of professional luthier drop out is due to burn out, not lack of commissions. If you are able to finds a good market to service, remember it is better to service the portion you reasonably can rather than to try to service all that you can round up.

If you want to do this part time then keep it part time! at lest till you are good and comfortable with the processes. Don't rush the quantity of orders you take. If your work is good the clients will find you. Then there will be time to increase your out put later.

It is much better for both your clients and yourself to build one great guitar a year than to build 10 mediocre guitars a year. It may not make for as profitable of a year, but I promise it will make for a much more profitable carrier

Now go make saw dust you termites

Man, that is a great post. Thanks for putting the time and effort into writing all that.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Thirded.

BRILLIANT post, and I just wrote a really long self absorbed post about my musings as an ametuer considering commission opportunities before I wiped the lot and posted this instead.

[QUOTE=MichaelP] There is no way with out building 50+ commissions a year I could provide the income to offer my family the lifestyle they are accustom to with out my day profession.[/QUOTE]
That just means that the oil folks are paying you too much!

All good advice, Michael. I've mentioned before that, based on conversations I've had and things I've read, it generally takes ten years for a guitar builder to be able to make the switch to full time lutherie. It just seems to be the way it is (with some exceptions, of course). I don't know why. Perseverence seems to be the key, if you have the skill to go along with it.

There has to be a transition point, though, where demand starts to increase, but not enough to leave the day job. It's a lot of pressure to juggle both, and it sounds like that's where you are right now, Michael. Of course, some jobs are just too good to give up for a life of lutherie!

Quality over quantity is definitely the way to approach guitar building. Well said!

I have no intention of becomming a pro and I may never accept a commssion. For now, every detail on every instrument that I make is my choice. Once I build for someone else, I'll lose that flexibility. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be great joy and satisfaction in building an instrument that delights someone else. But, for me, I prefer doing what I want when I want. I may sell and instrument that I've built on spec but I'll stay away from the commissions.

I am very fortunate in that I can build without having to recover my expenses through selling my instruments. And, like MichaelP, I have a day job that does a pretty good job of keeping food on the table and a roof over my head. The only problem I have is finding a place to put them all.

I would say you have to be getting a good buck per guitar to only make ten guitars and make a go of it, unless you have some other financial support (ie, wife, other job) or live for free somewhere in a shed, or your parents basement. Do the math ...

10 guitars at 3K per - 30K, assuming no consignment .. minus all the materials and building costs, say 500 each for materials and another hundred per for incidentals - that 6K. If you can live and pay the bills on 24K .... I couldnt ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

It seems to me, after doing much research, that the pleasure of building for others, the creative process AND the satisfaction of someone else playing your creation on a regular basis HAS to outweigh the moneymaking element, for it mostly isn't a lucrative business unless you possess some sort of acumen.

Some luthiers DO possess that acumen, and can balance the creative process of guitar building, and earning a living, finding more and more efficient ways to turn more guitars out a year, through more advanced machinery and even a work force.

If I wanted to make money out of guitar building, I'd go work at a factory, where they'd be a regular income. That was something I always faced as an artist...living from commission to commission was something I was uncomfortable with, and being brought up with the sense that you had to have a regular income, decided to stray from the path of being a full-time artist. I just don't have the nerves to wait for the next phone call...

If I were to build for others, it'd be on a VERY part-time basis. So, I would only build for the pleasure of seeing people love, value and play what is built.

/\ purely armchair musings....

TuiqI

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

[QUOTE=TonyKarol] I would say you have to be getting a good buck per guitar to only make ten guitars and make a go of it.[/QUOTE]
Tony, my friend. Are you responding to my above post? If so, please re-read.

Hey Carleton - maybe I should learn to read while I am making guitars - I would have swore that said ten guitars, not ten YEARS !!!!

Well then .. yeah maybe ten years .. hard to say in my case, i was kind of forced into it - laid off twice in a year from telecom, and nowhere to go as the downturn hit every telecom place near me. I had been putzing for a few years, but no acoustics, all electrics. But I knew how to make necks adn do fretwork and such ... I jumped in full time and it took about 3 years to get a little momentum, doing repairs helped some too.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I love woodworking and music is my passion 

In my case, I am twice retired. Once from a chemical company and once from a very profitable business venture. I can afford to take the time needed for each and every guitar, however, I have now started building in batches of 5. I enjoy doing this and it puts a little money in my pocket. When it gets to where it is a *J*O*B*(a dirty word), I'll probably find something else to ocupy my time. I dont see this happening anytime soon though.

I am a blessed man!

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Reguards,

Ken H

[QUOTE=TonyKarol] ... i was kind of forced into it...I jumped in full time and it took about 3 years to get a little momentum, doing repairs helped some too.[/QUOTE]
Lutherie as a fall-back plan...who would have thought?! I'm always glad to hear it when something like that works out for someone. It's pretty rare, though.

You know, I neglected to consider guitar repair in my above post. Of course, that's a branch of lutherie, too. As for building full time, though, it still seems to take around ten years before you can make the switch. I've heard of several folks who did lutherie full time from nearly the start, but repair was their day job for about a decade.

Well, another great thread started here! And, as already said, very good advise!

Michael, I kind of envy you! You are one of the lucky one’s! IMHO.
You have the best of both worlds.
You have a very well paying day job, and you get to create beautiful guitars!.

I have a (Fairly) well paying day job. However, it’s a bit up in the air right now. I build custom
homes for living. And, as most of you probably know, the housing market is a little on the down side.
Not complaining though, my family and, I are doing just fine. And, there’s not a day that goes by
that I don’t realize how fortunate I am.

I am one who aspires to do exactly what you are doing, Michael. Find the balance between day job
and building guitars. I have the drive, I have the tools, and the shop, I’m developing the knowledge.
My only problem is, Time. However, even that will work itself out.

When I finally reach that point, my next goal will be to make the transition to build guitars as a
full time profession. And, if ten years (As Carlton has suggested) is the mile stone be reached,
then, I will gladly persevere! I’m almost 49 years young. So, to be 59, still building guitars, and
making a living at it! Now, that’s something I’m really looking forward to!

Repair work has been mentioned, and that’s exactly what I intend to do. I want to get a little
more experience under my belt, and, get my second shop completely setup before I make that move.
That will take some more time.

I’d like to also say, that quality over quantity, has always been a priority for me. And, striving to do the
best that one can do, is the only way to approach any endeavor.
This has always been a part of my home building philosophy, and will be just as meaningful for guitar building.

Now, having said all that, there is the undeniable, all important question-

Will my guitars be worthy?

I know of only one way to find that out!

Build them!

Robert

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Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!

Build them, and they will come..................

Hesh,

You are to kind!

Though I very much appreciate your encouragement, and positive comments.
It might a good idea to see, and play my guitar in person first, so as to, make a more realistic
observation of my abilities.

Actually, come to think of it! That could be arranged. Maybe we could talk about that.

I will be bringing my guitar to the OLF gathering this Saturday.
I hope to get some constructive criticism from the very experienced builders, that I know will be attending.
All comments (negative or positive) will do everything to further myself, in my quest to be a great guitar builder!

My Grand Pappy used to say-

“One can learn more from his mistakes, than by his deeds”

Robert

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Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!