Official Luthiers Forum!

Alan,
I have tons of respect for you. Thank you for sharing so much with us. I have learned a lot from you.
I think you could teach a course. Have you thought about it?

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Steve, Alan does teach. Go here to find out all about it.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

     I used to work with a couple of Hungarian tool and die makers and they would tell you nothing, other than, in various forms of subtlety, your stupid! Their whole(or is it hole) approach was so backward in life, even though they knew their profession. For one example, it didn't take a genius to figure out what they were doing anyway!!!

     After leaving their shop and going to one that not only had top quality tooling guys but excellent apprentice programs and going back to the shop I worked at before, it was clear their culture was not only limiting others, but their own development.

     When one teaches others, one has to evaluate clearly, and throughly, what he himself is doing! This make certain points extremely salient and others that only appear important, less so!

     I still remember stepping off a radius using polar rectangular coordinantes which when looked at, was really quite intuitive, they looked as if I was doing something from outer space!

     I think what Kim was stating is related to the fact that OLF is a free forum, selflessly giving info simply because somebody asks. The "per fee" programs are obviously counter to that.

    I've seen Somogyi bracing, and it is different but lets take a look at what Andy said, Somogyi's guitar wasn't even the guitar that he himself prefered! So what does it add up too!

    Somogyi is doing something for money, clearly, what most of us are not! He's different from most on this forum. If he chooses not to post here, its likely because of that, and not because of some possible or potential pretense of offense. This makes, even more poignant, the service that guys like Lance, Brock, Carruth, Hesh and others do in teaching others! And are quite decent about too!

     If somebody thinks that, such and such, makers are so, so, so much better than others, they are deluded. They aren't!! The work of helping others is what sets real men apart, and yes, their guitars too!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Billy, Since you have not taken the Somogyi, you really shouldn't knock it. We learned some proprietary techniques that are simply not available anywhere else.

Cheers

Kim

I attended this last Somogyi class as well and just want to add a clarification.  The listening test we did had all the participants 30' away from and facing away from the player.  Not exactly how most of us listen to guitars.  One of the many things I learned from the class is just how different a guitar sounds when I play it, when someone else plays it in a small room, and when someone plays it 30' away.  Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong but my recollection is that Somogyi specifically does not build for projection.  We didn't get much time with his instruments but to my ear, when listening from far away, his sounded somewhat thin.  When listening close by, they had a voice like no other guitar I've played.  As someone said who listened to my first guitar after taking the class, it's like you could feel it breath.  Not breathy but alive and enveloping.  And of course, hard to put into words....

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

The other thing about that test is that the guitars everyone preferred from 30 feet away were all dreads. Andy noticed this first I think. There were some nice guitars there, but I have to believe that there is something about projection and a dread that made a big difference.
Most nights we would play all all the guitars, including some made by former apprentices. My favorites were those and Ervin's guitars. It wasn't even close. There was a huge difference between the student's guitars, Ervin's and his apprentices. Some of the student's guitars were very good. I've been playing acoustic guitars for 30 years, played some big name makers, and I'm not easily impressed. I was very impressed.
Call me deluded if you want.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

I happen to agree with most of what Kent and Steve have mentioned. In the blind listening test I picked Ervin's guitar as my favorite(was I the only one?), I just knew it was his because of it's presence...it was full, rich, and alive, although it did lack sustain(to my ear anyway). What I absolutely agree on is the rich sound of Ervin's guitars(and his apprentice's guitars)in a small room, especially when playing them yourself, they were just so different than the students guitars, big, full, deep, resonant all come to mind, made me think, wow! that's special, I want to know how to build one like that...they were different,unique, better than most to me, I'm thrilled I was able to attend the class and it has certainly prompted me to change the way I build, can't wait to hear the results.

Greg

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Gwaltney Guitars

[QUOTE=Billy T]      I used to work with a couple of Hungarian tool and die makers and they would tell you nothing, other than, in various forms of subtlety, your stupid! Their whole(or is it hole) approach was so backward in life, even though they knew their profession. For one example, it didn't take a genius to figure out what they were doing anyway!!!

     After leaving their shop and going to one that not only had top quality tooling guys but excellent apprentice programs and going back to the shop I worked at before, it was clear their culture was not only limiting others, but their own development.

     When one teaches others, one has to evaluate clearly, and throughly, what he himself is doing! This make certain points extremely salient and others that only appear important, less so!

     I still remember stepping off a radius using polar rectangular coordinantes which when looked at, was really quite intuitive, they looked as if I was doing something from outer space!

     I think what Kim was stating is related to the fact that OLF is a free forum, selflessly giving info simply because somebody asks. The "per fee" programs are obviously counter to that.

    I've seen Somogyi bracing, and it is different but lets take a look at what Andy said, Somogyi's guitar wasn't even the guitar that he himself prefered! So what does it add up too!

    Somogyi is doing something for money, clearly, what most of us are not! He's different from most on this forum. If he chooses not to post here, its likely because of that, and not because of some possible or potential pretense of offense. This makes, even more poignant, the service that guys like Lance, Brock, Carruth, Hesh and others do in teaching others! And are quite decent about too!

     If somebody thinks that, such and such, makers are so, so, so much better than others, they are deluded. They aren't!! The work of helping others is what sets real men apart, and yes, their guitars too! [/QUOTE]


Here is a guy who has a lifetime of knowledge and making it available, first as a PROFLIFIC writer whose content costs nothing more than membership in the professional associations, and second as a dedicated, intense, hands on experience. None of the other big builders are doing that for any price -- yet folks who have never taken the course seem to begrudge him the right to charge for this experience and knowledge.

I think the online forums are great, but they have their limitations.

I can tell you that I am 100% sure that he advanced my own building by at least a decade if not 20 or more years of self experimentation. I will be forever grateful that he opened up his shop and his mind to me.

I would defy you to find one former student who would not tell you that the course is worth double or more than what he charges.

The bottom line is it is a unique opportunity to have one of the highest masters of the craft share his approach.

I see this notion that he is "simply in it for the money" to be a crude representation of the facts. Sure he wants to be compensated, but there is a lot more to it than that.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Great thread here. Lots of exchanging of ideas and opinions, venting, the whole of the communication experience, with nary a flame!

I had one brief interaction with Ervin in the mid-70s when I took my D-28 to him to have the top repaired. I don't recall much, except that he seemed a bit tight-lipped as to what the repair was going to involve. I had just come from Lundgerg's shop, where the repair person was very forthright as to what they intended to do. I didn't move in these circles, mind you, but they were in the area. Two different people just being who they are. One was not better than the other, just different and that might be part of what's at work here. I liked listening to the guy at Lundgerg's, but it was Ervin who fixed my guitar.

One thing I'd like to add is that learning a method or technique — whether it's a system for voicing tops or performing brain surgery — doesn't qualify us to go out and teach what we've just learned. I just think that could be a precaution that's being taken. For someone to say something like, "I did it this way because I learned this from Ervin Somogyi" is taking that technique out of context especially in a course such as Ervin's where, as I understand it, he's not teaching building techniques or processes, but rather teaching a whole system of thinking about developing one's own techniques. Maybe that's part of what could make sharing tidbits potentially counterproductive to Ervin's ideas of a system of thought, which is to help us guide our own development as builders of guitars.

This is in contrast with what Alan Carruth so graciously shares with so many of us regarding Chladni patterns and plate and air resonances. If I'm not mistaken, Alan's talking process and technique, where Ervin is inclined more toward a philosophy. And incidentally, Alan may well have developed his techniques by following a path similar to what Ervin teaches.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

[QUOTE=John Elshaw] Then why won't anybody talk about it if it's freely available information? [/QUOTE]

Information on how to play the guitar is freely available. Would you expect guitar teachers to work for free?


[QUOTE=John Elshaw]Sharing information has done nothing but help the luthier business of guys like Cumpiano, our own Robbie O'Brien, Mayes, David Schramm, et al.[/QUOTE]

Last I saw, most of those you mention are selling books, DVDs or classes as a way to share their information. I bought the Cumpiano book and I've bought DVDs from John Mayes and Robbie O'Brien. I have no problem paying  people for their knowledge.

Jim

[QUOTE=Brock Poling]

And don't forget... the core of his concepts are freely available in old Guitarmaker and other luthier publications. Just go buy some back issues and study what he says. Get every article written by him. He is a wealth of information on many topics -- not just voicing.


[/QUOTE]

Absolutely correct. During the year I edited Guitarmaker, Ervin was the most active contributor to the magazine. He shared a lot of infomration during that period, as he has in the past.

Jim

Kim, Are you growling at me or just veiling a threat?

It seems to me that Ervin (don't know him, but easier to spell) with his wealth of knowledge, knows the type of venue that is right to most effectively teach his "philosophy", and from reading the reviews of his students, I gather that it is more that than a specific way of building.  He certainly owns the right to how he gives or sells that information.  He has obviously shared freely with a lot of that in his writings, many of which are on his website.  All very interesting, though I'm not sure I understand it all, and maybe that would be a good reason to take the course.

In any case, I would guess that there others who may have come to some of the same conclusions that he has, but may not have applied them in the same way, or who know the same things, but have not analyzed them the way he has.  It is however, he who has put it all together, has shared much in his writings, and who has made it available to anyone who wants to take the course.  Sure Works for me!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] And in a way the glowing endorsements with out specifics actually do kind of throw salt into the open wounds of those of us who have not taken the course. Does this make sense?[/QUOTE]

It just isn't like that. What we are all trying to say when we come back from this is that the class is not a collection of "bits" of information and wisdom all strung together, it is a fundamental shift in the way we THINK about guitars.

You don't walk away from the class with all of "the answers". You walk away with the formula to devise your own answers in an intelligent way.

There are some glimpses of what we learned in the archive .. deflection testing, monopole, cross-dipole, long-dipole, cube rule, stiff rims, etc. And while all of these things are the elements of the class to look at these as the "things" we learned is missing the real essesence of the training.

Rather than debate this to death I think the right approach would be for us to petition Ervin and others to share their knowledge in a variety of formats. They could write books, make videos, come here and be a guest instructor/lecturer, or a variety of other things.

Remember most of these guys grew up "pre-Internet" and their format was ASIA and GAL (which are still very valid exchanges). However, the Internet is not a culture that most are familiar with.

I think this just goes to show how starved we all are for more advanced material.

Get on the horn and invite some of the veterans here and ask them to contact us about teaching an online class, or doing a demonstration for us.

Clearly some won't want to do that, but others will. Some will do so as part of a PR event to promote a product or service -- which is ok provided the lecture contains actual content.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Jim Samuel]
[QUOTE=John Elshaw] Then why won't anybody talk about it if it's freely available information? [/QUOTE]Information on how to play the guitar is freely available. Would you expect guitar teachers to work for free?[/QUOTE]

I never said Ervin should teach for free, or guitar teachers for that matter, but certainly people who have taken guitar lessons should be able to speak freely about what they learn! Your arguement actually strengthens my case--openly talking about what you learn in a guitar lesson does nothing to lessen the value of a good teacher, and in my opinion reinforces the value of good instruction.


[QUOTE=Jim Samuel]
[QUOTE=John Elshaw]Sharing information has done nothing but help the luthier business of guys like Cumpiano, our own Robbie O'Brien, Mayes, David Schramm, et al.[/QUOTE]Last I saw, most of those you mention are selling books, DVDs or classes as a way to share their information. I bought the Cumpiano book and I've bought DVDs from John Mayes and Robbie O'Brien. I have no problem paying  people for their knowledge.Jim [/QUOTE]

Of course, they have the right to earn a living just like Ervin and everybody else, but those guys will also talk openly and encourage and teach right here in the forum, and we all benefit as a result. And none of the forum guys that I'm aware of has ever told anybody to keep their lips sealed about anything on their dvd's. Nobody is criticizing Ervin for making a living, it's just a philosophical debate about whether spreading information helps or hurts 1.) Ervin, and 2.) the luthier community at large. If you go to a group of scientists in any other area, they will all say spreading information is crucial in order to take science to the next level. Some of the builders like Al C. are much more scientific in certain aspects of their building, and the systems approach he supports is founded on strong scientific principles. Like Al says, in the end it will come out, but the sooner it does, the sooner the entire community will move forward in other areas and take what they learned one step further. That's how real scientific progress is made--it's rare that people come up with something totally revolutionary. And who knows, maybe even Ervin could learn something from one of the new up and coming builders. I for one would love to take his course some day, and the price seems fair, but discussion here would have no affect on the value I place on his course, just like discussion about guitar playing would have no effect on whether I would seek out a good teacher or not.

John

[QUOTE=John Elshaw] ...but certainly people who have taken guitar lessons should be able to speak freely about what they learn! [/QUOTE] John,
The funny thing is, we are free to speak. There is nothing stopping us other than respect for Ervin and the strange thought that if we tried to tell you anything about the course, the Hungarian Mafia would break our knee caps.
Seriously, we speak up and talk about it in threads as we help others. What we have learned has become part of how we build and how we interact with others.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts, it's easy to understand the frustration as all of us want to build the best instruments we can and a thread like this seems as though it may hold some "secrets" which are "so close yet so far". It seems to me that most of the comments from those who have taken the course have been respectful, and erred on the side of modest appreciation rather than...Nah nah nah nah nah. I certainly hope I wasn't seen as one throwing salt into the wounds, because I thought I was respectfully careful to not "rub it in" if that is the correct phrase. My hope was to gently infuse some honest info about what Ervin and his class is all about to those who seemed to still be unquenched in their desire to know more, or unsatisfied with what they had heard to date. You see it is tricky, sometimes silence is best, but then there is the desire from most people to help within the boundaries of the topic at hand, silence generally enables these subjects to just fade into the twighlight, trying to honestly help in a situation like this can easily, and mistakenly I think, be seen as selfishness on the part of those who reluctantly join the fray in an effort to help clarify that which is still possibly confusing. Sometimes subjects like this can quickly become so twisted with greed and fear that many lose site of the generosity of information that has actually been provided. I hope everyone can take a deep breath and realize that those who have trained with Ervin, and offered some insight about it's contents through this forum, have done so with good, honest intentions, and in reality may have revealed more details than not!

Cheers,
Greg   

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Gwaltney Guitars

[QUOTE=John Elshaw] If you go to a group of scientists in any other area, they will all say spreading information is crucial in order to take science to the next level.[/QUOTE]

No scientist would knowingly provide proprietary information to another scientist who works for a different organization. That information is highly protected.

Information is a product. If Ervin has information that others are willing to pay to hear, then why should that information be distributed freely?


[QUOTE=John Elshaw]Like Al says, in the end it will come out, but the sooner it does, the sooner the entire community will move forward in other areas and take what they learned one step further.[/QUOTE]

People here who have taken Ervin's course have said it helped them advance ten years or more in their guitarmaking abilities. They got that information by taking Ervin's course. But where did Ervin get the information? If Ervin took the time and put out the effort to try new things and develop his practices by himself, why should he not be rewarded for that effort? He did not have the option of paying for the shortcut that he is now offering to others.

To take your scientist analogy a step further, real progress is achieved by allow those who come up with new developments to benefit financially from their work.

In this case, Ervin's product is information, knowledge and experience. He worked to acquire all of that and I don't think others should expect him to give it away, nor should they give away his information.

My bet is that if someone took Ervin's class and immediately wrote messages here or elsewhere conveying everything they had learned, the net result would be that people like Ervin would be less willing to show the techniques they have developed to anyone else.

Jim

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] This makes it fustrating for them to continually hear how wonderful something is - something that is out of reach for them. I find this level of sensitivity to others not a difficult concept to comprehend........[/QUOTE]

I hear you... we are on the same wavelength...    my only point was that it isn't that we simply *won't* give any information about it. It is just that it is such a holistic and comperhensive experience there is simply no way we could ever explain it in a way that would be meaningful or give an accurate accounting of what we learned.

I know what you mean about the perception.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
This makes it fustrating for them to continually hear how wonderful something is - something that is out of reach for them. I find this level of sensitivity to others not a difficult concept to comprehend........

[/QUOTE]

It is not difficult to comprehend that position, however, there are a lot of things in life that I hear are wonderful but they are out of reach for me. For example, a BMW 7 series is supposed to be a great car but I can never afford one. People race about Wayne Henderson's guitars but I will never be able to own one. I make do with what is within my reach.

Jim

What about pursuing Kevin Gallagher for some sort of voicing course? I
know he has a great recording setup and it wouldn't need to be text
based (which isn't the best medium for this stuff anyway).

On a less specific thought, I know we have people here who could
appropriately serve as technical advisors or even prepare the media. I
studied theology in college, but I also studied production and am
comfortable with preparing video and audio for the web. This could help
draw some people who don't want to write endlessly.