Official Luthiers Forum!

I will 2nd, 3rd, or 44th the choice of EIrw as the best choice to build first/second guitars from. Its the easiest to bend, scrapes and sands wonderfully, and best, it makes a uperb guitar. Tkae your choice of top woods, sitka, lutz, cedar, all are cheap and will impart their own flavour to the final product. Three other woods that are cheap and make nice guitars are bubinga, wenge and padauk (padauk - as long as you mind your shop looking like the paprika fairy lives there ) . And as a free bonus, you will experince the wonders of bending a bunch of fairly ornery woods, and test you pore filing abilities to the max (w and p). If you can bend any of these into a venetian, you can bend pretty much anything. You have officially arrived ....

I remember 4 years ago thinking I would never build with BRW - its just too much $$$ .. then a client comes along, buys his own and says here .. make guitar. Since then, all kinds has shown up for less than you think it will cost,and you are off to the races .. or at least hording it for later in life .....

Its not how much money you have when you retire, its how much ZOOT

He who perishes with the most ZOOT .. WINS. (Lance, we need T shirts ... Zootman on the front, ZOOT collage on the back, and scratch and sniff patches too .. mmm BRW)

Forget the nickels ... If I only had a set of ZOOT for everytime I heard someone say ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Blain - my first was black walnut with an AA white spruce top.  It planed and bent nicely and sounds great to me.  My second will probably be Padauk, the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th will be sapele, more walnut and oregon myrtle.  After that, I will be comfortable with the more expensive stuff.  To me, more expensive is >$100 a set. 

I think you'll know when you're comfortable to use more expensive stuff.  I find it tempting, its very easy to buy, but I realize most "store" guitars are half laminated wood with AA sruce tops.  It helps me to remember that the $40 set of Sapele or $75 set of walnut is more wood than most factory guitars I see!   

I think you've been more than answered by everyone and I look forward to your pics.....

Laurie

 

 

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Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.

Tony, you are a very sick man.

To follow up a bit on Colin's excellent advice; great top woods need not be expensive at all. I would choose spruce of some sort for a first, cedar dents if you look at cross eyed, spruce is a little more robust. Tell your dealer to ship something with little runout, if nothing else it makes hand planing it a breeze.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Yes Arnt .. and drugs dont seem to help much either

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Colin wrote: Can you really (be honest now) tell the tonal difference between a BRW/spruce guitar and the same build but using EIR?

I can’t and I doubt many others can either. Though you can hear a subtle difference between a Mahogany, Maple or East Indian Rosewood guitar, its subtle but there…IMHO

I think the sadly departed Mario Proulx said it best, “pick the top to please your ears and the back/sides to please your eyes”.

Todd thanks for your posts – you hit my funny bone but good.

So what qualifies as “responsible” wood?
-     mahogany
-     maple
-     east Indian rosewood
-     cherry
-     walnut
-     bubinga
-     wenge
-     padauk

What qualifies as “irresponsible”?
-     Koa
-     Australian/Tasmanian Blackwood?
-     Brazilian
-     African Blackwood

I’d like to get a sense for how irresponsible I might be in the future…..and learn who amongst us deems themselves worthy of being the judge.

I'm with you Tony -- "he who dies with the nicest zoot, wins".

It's all fine and dandy to say that using an expensive set of wood is being irresponsible but come on, one set of BRW, heck even 500 is no where near being irresponsible next to the rape and ravage of the Brazilian rain forest, heck even the rape and ravage of the African planes for ivory or other "exotic" materials. It's only exotic to those who don't live there.

since we are not allowed to get political, I won't BUT there is certainly enough rape and ravage of the earths natural resources both past and present that we should all be ashamed of considerably more than which set of b/s should I use for my first guitar.

I say use what ever your heart desires. You can buy pretty much every thing now days from either LMI, Stew-Mac or Allied if not the great host of sponsors here.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

This is a great thread.  When do you start using expensive wood?  Like others have said, it's your decision and for me must be somewhat commenserate with my skill level.

I probably have a different approach to collecting zoot than some others and have chosen to invest in a high quality resaw and then rummage through lumber racks to find the occasional keeper.  This means that I have some very high quality wood that will make very inexpensive plates and sides.  As an example, I have a spectactular board of macassar ebony that is quarter sawn and a full 8" wide - sets from this board will cost me less than $25.  I probably won't use one of those sets until I've got at least 10 guitars under my belt.

#1 was hondo mahogany and sitka, #2 is the same and #3 is plain jane cocobolo and engelman.  The engelman was a very expensive "master" grade top from a national vendor (not an OLF sponsor) and is a very disapointing piece of wood due to the excessive runout.  Expensive doesn't always mean quality.

As with so many things in life, there is a lot of elitism, snobbery and judgmental attitudes about other's ethics regarding the use and/or misuse of rare and exotic woods.  I have my own predjudice - I don't intend ever to build with EIR because I find it rather pedestrian. 

The fact is that there is quite an abundance of extremely high quality, high figure tone wood.  The problem is that most of it is being sliced into veneer and used to panel some exec's office or the building lobby, where it will have a life span of usually less than 20 years before it is demolished and sent to the land fill.  The federal courthouse built in Seattle a couple of years ago has enough 5A flitch cut walnut, maple and cherry to keep every guitar builder in America supplied with zoot for at least ten or twenty years.

If the ethics police want to issue a citation, go get the real offenders, and when that is done then you can take issue with the hobby builder that uses 2 or 3 sets of tone wood that are deemed too advanced for his or her skill level.

[QUOTE=Anthony Z]
So what qualifies as “responsible” wood?
-     mahogany
-     maple
-     east Indian rosewood
-     cherry
-     walnut
-     bubinga
-     wenge
-     padauk

What qualifies as “irresponsible”?
-     Koa
-     Australian/Tasmanian Blackwood?
-     Brazilian
-     African Blackwood

I’d like to get a sense for how irresponsible I might be in the future…..and learn who amongst us deems themselves worthy of being the judge.

[/QUOTE]

Anthony,

Given it's recent CITES Appendix II listing I'm afraid mahogany has to move to your "irresponsible" list. More bad news for Colin - Madagascan Rosewood should probably be on the "irrisposible" side too. Just google in Madagascar and read what is going on there. I think Cocobolo is in the "irresponsible" group too. Also reading something that Shane posted recently Lutz is there too and probably sitka - not to mention adirondack.

By the way - I'm using your terminology of "irresponsible" - it's probably a bit too emotive a phrase really. All wood should be used "responsibly" and I hate to see any go to waste. That's why I've made a few 4 piece back instruments with sapele recently - it's cheap enough to get 2 piece sets but the wood was begging to be used and these sort of techniques are going to become all to common in the future.

Usual rider - most of the rapacious wood consumption is not driven by or done by guitar makers.

As a flipside of the argument that wood such as Braz should only be used "responsibly" by those competent enough to get the best sound and visual aesthetics out of it, does it also hold true that they should only be bought and played by people that likewise can play the best out of them as opposed to those that can't play diddley .... but have a fist full of money?

Just a thought

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I can't rememeber who it was-but it it was a "big" name
who made a guitar out of the finest Brazilian rosewood and Adi spruce,then painted the back and sides black and used an "cheesy" (my opinion) opaque dark sunburst on the top.
It ended up looking like a "cheap" guitar,yet of course allegedly sounded and played great.
Intersting concept!

Dave, I doubt that Sitka is on the irresponsible side. I saw a recent thread that caused doubt about it's becoming rare. Talking with a sawmill operator from Oregon, just last week, he laughed when I brought it up.

He said all around him, Sitka is considered worthless. So there must be an abundance of it still. Taylor once said that they could build 2500 guitar tops from one nice Sitka tree. I wonder how true that is?

This family friend said he had taken a bulldozer and pushed a big Sitka over and out of the way on his property. Then he held his hand about three and a half feet off the floor, indicating how tall the trunk was off the ground. (Sitka anyone, for me it's a bit of a drive)

Great thread.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

[QUOTE=Dave White]

Given it's recent CITES Appendix II listing I'm afraid mahogany has to move to your "irresponsible" list. More bad news for Colin - Madagascan Rosewood should probably be on the "irrisposible" side too. Just google in Madagascar and read what is going on there. I think Cocobolo is in the "irresponsible" group too. Also reading something that Shane posted recently Lutz is there too and probably sitka - not to mention adirondack.

[/QUOTE]

Dave all of the Mahogany that I've got (and I've got a lot )is from the same plantation grown Sri Lankan source that also produces a lot of EIR and is sustainably grown. Never seen South America in it's entire life and is far superior to the stuff from S America straighter grained and even growth as it's not competing with other forest trees. The Madagascan is the old original stuff that Madinter got about 5 years ago. I've got enough for 4 guitars so that'll be that, though I believe, from what I hear, that that may also be grown in Sri Lanka soon for future generations. Sri Lanka is becoming a hardwood boutique.

In the scientific world CITIES is viewed as a mainly ineffectual bureaucratic body rife with political self interest and is little respected for the rigour of it's decisions. For the British among us a bit like the NHSs NICE drug licensers.


Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin,

I wasn't meaning to get a dig in at you in my post. And I hear what you say - the Cuban Mahogany I have used has come from sustainable plantations in Micronesia. I also fear that you are right about CITES - the principle is so right but when politics get in the way principles tend to go out the window.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I wrote a long and most likely response to this post and have decided to trash it. Instead, I will try to remember that my goal is to build good sounding instruments that will not implode. A good luthier can and should be able to build out almost any kind of wood with better than average results even if they build by combing smaller pieces. Everything else is just decoration. Some people revere wood and place it on a pedestal to enjoy. The next might take the same wood and have no problem building a box or a shelf from it. There could be some who with no knowledge would just cut up a board and throw it in the fire place to keep warm. If it’s legal then you can use it if you wish. But each of your opinions is as valid as mine.

If you are worried about the loss of hardwoods in the world then check out this link.Tropical Ameriacn Tree Farms The research I have done leads me to believe this is an upstanding organization. Evidently, there are some that are not. I’m condidering on making an investment later this year when I have some money coming in. Of course, these are my thoughts only and if you have interest please do your own research before any thought of investment.

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aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

Remember not to confuse price with quality. Sure you need to spend a certain amount to get wood that is well quartered, doesn't have run out etc. Once you get to that price point supply and demand set the price.

Mad Rosewood costs more than Mahogany because there is less of it. Figured Bubinga costs more than plain Bubinga because there is less of it. Sitka with colour variation costs less because there is less demand. None of these examples affect the tone of the instrument.

You should figure out whether your aesthetic design benefits from highly figured wood. Then figure out what woods fit your acoustic design. Then buy that wood without looking at the price.

Personally I keep leaning to less expensive wood. I love the sound of Cedar and I like a little colour variation. I love the sound of Mahogany and I think it's a beautiful wood.

The world is a great place when what you like the most costs the least.

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David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

[QUOTE=Colin S] In the scientific world CITIES is viewed as a mainly ineffectual bureaucratic body rife with political self interest and is little respected for the rigour of it's decisions. Colin[/QUOTE] Hi Colin, Wouldn't you agree that all bureaucracies are bureaucratically tied by their own red tape, and that with the documented first mass extinction caused by humans well under way, that we need SOME organization to at least rattle some sabres internationally? (In other words, isn't something better than nothing?)

Blain, I think you have already gotten some good advice here. My first guitar is a player, not a wall hanger, so I am one who believes that you may not have to build a lot of guitars before you are ready to use some "expensive" material. As others have pointed out, expensive is not necessarily going to make a better sounding guitar though. And, expensive can surely mean outlandishly overpriced (like Brazilian rosewood), or very difficult to bend materials that require experience, not money, to be used successfully. Kelby listed a wood I believe that virtually no trained ear could distinguish from any other "glassy" wood like Brazilian Rosewood: Granadillo. Lastly, from every respected luthier I've talked to, the soundboard is where to put the money, if you want an instrument that is exceptional even when the lights go off. Ask Bob Cefalu or any of the other sponsors about Picea lutzii ("Lutz") soundboards that are a bit away from master grade (uniform) color. You'll be glad you did.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

My first guitar back in the 1970's was a classical of German Alpine Spruce and Brazilian Rosewood for the sides and back!

The Spruce was expensive as real German was getting hard to find so I paid $38 for the top which was one notch below what today we would call Master grade. The Brazilian Rosewood was a lesser grade as only half of the width of the back was quartersawn...

The build took forever as the only book I had to go by was A.P. Sharpe's How to make your Spanish Guitar which was all of 40 pages if that with mostly line drawings and very few details.

At the time I was a poor college student and could not afford a concert instrument so the money I spent on the wood cost me meals and other expenses but I was determined to build a guitar of my own. I used only hand tools and had very few of them except for a really expensive violin makers knife that was the sharpest thing I had ever seen.

In many ways it was the most expensive guitar I have ever built because the wood cost far more than I could afford, even though the prices are a bargain by todays dollars. It came out good and while rough around the edges sounded good. I was too embarrased to show it to any friends that were classical guitarists but it played well and met my needs. If I had built that guitar I would not have stuck with it till now.

When Torres was at his poorest he built guitars with 4 and 5 piece tops, with the sides and backs being Cypress or Maple. While the tops were 4-5 pieces, upon closer inspection you will notice that he was cutting the part of a board that was dead on quartersawn as he knew that ultimately that it doesnt matter what the guitar looks like, it is the quality not the price of the wood that matters.

His proof of that concept is his famous guitar that was built with a body that was paper mache but with a good spruce top. Similarly Bob Benedetto built a guitar from palletwood... it isnt completely about the wood either...it is about the combination of he skill of the builder combined with the quality of the individual piece of wood.

I only build classical and flamenco guitar but like other builders over time had come to the conclusion that it was the rarity of the materials used that helped to justify a higher price so I only would build with BRW and Alpine Spruce.

At the same time, I was lured away from building with just hand tools and got to the point a few years ago that there was no part of a guitar that I dont have a jig or fixture for... Tool acquisition syndrome can be as insidious as Wood acquisition syndrome!

While I was building in batches of 6 and was building a consistently good guitar, it had started to feel like I might as well be building fine furniture or cabinets as I was loosing touch with the building process and the wood itself.

I have no issues with people who are more comfortable with power tools and have not sworn them off...for me it is just a personal thing that I wanted to get back to where I was at when I built from start to finish with good but not extravagant woods and mostly with hand tools instead of machinery.

Last year I attended the Jose Romanillos guitar building class in Spain hoping to reconnect to the art of building, instead of the craft. It was what I needed as only hand tools were allowed from start to finish.

I will be attending his class in Spain again this year but the interesting effect of having rethinking my building is that this last year of 12 guitars only 2 have been Brazilian Rosewood and those were for previous orders. Another 4 were in EIR, and the remainder have been blanca's (3 classical and 3 flamenco) in Spanish Cypress or Port Orford Cedar (Lawson Cypress).

While I still have plenty of power tools and machinery, several of my power tools and pieces of machinery that I would have used as the primary way of building are not unused in favor of a more hands on approach.

All of this is a very long way to say, guitar building is about building as good a qualty as you are able for the stage and experience you are at using the best quality wood (at least for the top) that you can afford without going overboard and if the result sounds good and each build gets better than you have accomplished something special, both for yourself and those that will play and or own your guitars.

Very cool.

Thanks for your comments everyone.

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."