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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 1:10 pm 
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This thread is in response to Larry's questions about comparing two part McFaddens Urethane Lacquer to McFaddens Nitrocellulose Lacquer. I don't want to clutter up Lance's SJ thread so .... her goes it:

Is Urethane more user friendly than Nitro? Well.... Yes and no. Urethane fumes are really bad so you need a GOOD respirator to spray it or even mix it. Once you mix the hardener you have a 6 hour pot life and then it sets up like epoxy!!! I keep a real close eye on the clock Clean up with lacquer thinner.

How do you mix it? Mix ratio is 4 parts urethane, 1 part hardner, 1/2 part Butyl Acetate (optional) as this finish is a bit thicker consistency than nitro. Don't leave lacquer thinner in the guin or you will have problems. Flush the gun with Butyl Acetate before spraying Urethane.

Costs? It's about 3 times more expensive than nitro. About $80.00 per gallon with hardener vs. $28 for Nitro

Special spray equipment? No, just use the same gun, tip and nozzle you would use for nitro.

How does it spray? It is thicker so I had to thin it a bit and increase the air to around 50 psi to get better atomization. It flows out like glass with vey little orange peel IF you spray it wet.

Does it tack up as quickly as nitro? Yes about the same or maybe a bit faster.

How many coats of Urethane are required? I have been using a total of 6 coats. Spray a maximum of 3 wet coats per day. It is important to wait 1.5 hours between coats or you may trap gas. Wait 48 hours, level sand with 220 (sterated paper is OK) and spray final 3 coats.

How does it sand? Great, in two days, unlike nitro which will clog paper. Sands to a nice dry powder.

How long until you can buff it? It can be buffed in 3-5 days but 7 days is better. It off gasses quickly and the fumes are mostly gone in 3 days, unike nitro which off gasses for a a couple of weeks. It buffs a bit harder than nitro and doesn't burninsh. If you sand it properly (up to 2000) it will look just as deep and glossy as nitro. I use fine and very fine Menzerna compounds.

What is the sanding schedule before power buffing? Sand with 600 Abranet (only if you have runs or orange peel), 1000 Mirka gold, 2000 Abranet, then buff.

I noticed a slight bluish tint on RW the first coat that I applied. Very similar to a faint bluish color of waterbourne. I added 10 drops of yellow and 20 drops of amber dye to the gallon and the blue cast went away. It's is as clear as water in the can and when I called McFaddens they were baffled as to why I had the blue cast.

What about repairs and witness lines? It will not burn into the previous layers if you wait over 24 hours. After 24 hours you must scuff or level sand to provide a good mechanical bond. You can't drop fill like nitro. I have made repairs with CA but it will shrink back so you will have to wait a week before leveling and buffing or you will see tell tale signs.

Is it worth the higher cost over nitro? It has a lot of benefits: More durable, resists scratches better, shorter duration of off gassing, you can buff it in 1/4 the time as nitro (which is probably the most important factor to me).

What about cold checking and finish crazes? I don't know the answer to this question. If nitro is applied to heavy it WILL crack and craze.

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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 10:53 pm 
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First name: Lance
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Tim - I went to Tony's to pick up the LS Coco Om, I wasn't in his shop for 15 minutes and I got an absolute SPLITTING headache that lasted all day. His shop is HUGE and properly ventilated, not to mention the massive garage door was open. I could smell it when I walked in.

Tony waits at least 2 weeks before buffing, I know this because the absolute quickest he can turn it around it 3 weeks, one week to shoot and 2 to cure.

Thanks for the review!





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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 8:43 am 
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Tim, did you put the tint in all the coats you sprayed or just a few?


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 8:53 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I have been using a two part urethane for years and getting great results. If anyone is interested I can give you the contact info for the company.


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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 10:21 am 
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Warning!

This is nasty crap. It's the same compound as car paint. You need a Tyveck suit. Also a good respirator with charcoal filters. Change the filters every 48 hours of use. Must seal filters in a plastic baggy when not using them. I speak from experience. I painted cars for quite a while when this first hit the market. Ended up with chemical blood poisoning. Migrains. Took me a lot of years to get it out of my system. Some people never get rid of it. It goes right through the pores of your skin and absorbs through your eyes. Technically you should be using a full sealed mask to prevent this.

I tried the catalyzed McFadden on two guitars. I didn't like it. I thought it made the guitar sound tight.

My preference is McFadden's Nitro Lacquer.

Lance


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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 12:56 pm 
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[QUOTE=Colby Horton] Tim, did you put the tint in all the coats you sprayed or just a few?[/QUOTE]
I put the tint in (the entire gallon) and it did not build or darken subsequent layers.

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 1:03 pm 
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Lance:
I ordeed the two part Urethane Lacquer and Nitro at the same time. I spent some time reading the MSDS sheets for each product and what surprised me was that Nitro is listed as carcinogenic and the Urethane isn't. As nasty as the Urethane is to be around I would have thought it to be worse.

I sure like the look and buffing qualities of the Urethane. You can really lean on it and it doesn't burn. I should have some guitars strung up early next week so I will be able to comment on the tone then. I sure hope it doesn't dampen the tone as these guitars are for HB.

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 1:04 pm 
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Robbie: Are you using McFaddens?

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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 1:44 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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No Tim,
I am using a two part urethane from an Italian company called ILVA.
They have a Stateside distributor called Camger.


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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 12:39 pm 
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Robbie:
How do they compare to McFaddens's cost ($80/gal)? Please post or PM a link or contact info. How soon do you buff it? Is it comparable to McFadden's product?

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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 7:32 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Robbie: I'm piqued. How's the application schedule/ease of use/etc.? I've been looking around for Euro alternatives to the big US brands that simply can't get shipped over here.


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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 1:38 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Okay Tim and Mattia, here is the scoop...
http://www.camger.com/index2.htm This is the address to the stateside representative for ILVA. I am sure you can find the Italian one Mattia.
I haven't actually purchased any myself for a while cause the shop manager at the school has been getting it for me. I want to say that it is about 30 to 40 bucks a gallon but don't quote me. I usually get the quart sizes which is enough to do 2 or 3 guitars.
This company has two products I have used. One is a polyurethane gloss (TP60) and hardener(TX75) This is a one to one mix ratio. It has the nice warm amber color. The other is a clear acrylic gloss urethane (TP2030) and hardener(TX1939) This is a two to one mix ratio. THis product is water white and has UV protectors. Don't let the word acrylic fool you. It is not waterbourne. I thin both products about 10% (lacquer thinner will do or you can use their thinners) and spray with conventional sprayer at 40PSI. The little harbor freight touch up guns are the perfect size.


These products are different than lacquer in that they are reactive finishes as oppossed to evaporative and they build in layers as oppossed to melting into the previous one. You can sand thorugh layers of finish before getting to the wood. If this happens you will have witness lines and must recoat if it is the final wet sand that this happens on. The reason I like them is that you can apply them and buff them in 4 days. This is much better than any lacquer. They go on like water and flow out nicely. They are also self sealing, no need for polyester sealers etc.
Here is my finishing schedule for these products:
Day 1
Fill pores. (I use end grain sawdust and shellac) This way I can fill the pores and spray the finish in the same day only a few hours apart. I brush on the first coat of poly. That's right, brush. At this point I dont care what the finish looks like and brushing helps it get into the pores that might not have been filled completely. I start on the back and as soon as it becomes tacky (usually before finishing the back) I start over and brush on a second coat. After 1 to 3 hours I brush on another coat.
Day 2
Mow the finish down with a palm sander 180 grit. I now spray a coat. 1 to 3 hours later I spray another coat.
Be carfeul in the peghead or heel block area to not get drips. This is more important on a classical cause it is harder to sand than a steel string peghead.
Day 3
same as day two.
Day 4
wet sand 600 grit and buff to high gloss using varoius buffing compounds. I use menzerna. You can also wet sand to a higher grit and then only use menzerna fine and super fine.
I do not wet sand the heel block or peghead in the tuner areas unless I got a run. Usually it goes on so well that all you need to do is buff it in these areas.
Mattia, I use to use a product from another Italian company called Sayerlac. I actually prefer this product but can't get it here in the States. You might want to check it out to.
Here are a couple of pics that I hope can illustrate the completed finish
Good luck guys!    





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