Official Luthiers Forum!

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with Titebond's "Liquid Hide Wood Glue"? 

I just had a back blow off a one year old guitar that may have other problems, and am trying to narrow down the culprit.



Thanks for any input.

Just wanted to say welcome, Rich. I don't have any experience with the glue you mentioned, but someone who does will probably reply here soon.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

HI
   I can tell you that the only hide glue that will work is hot hide glue. the premix has a short shelf life and isn't a good glue to use.
john hall
blues creek guitars

Hi Rich,
I used it once with disastrous results. i would only use it to attach a label to the bottle that said DO NOT USE!!!
Hope this helps,
Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

Rich-
Welcome to the OLF.
I haven't used the exact product you mention, but the 'Liquid Hide Glue' preparations generally have a poor reputation for any joint that requires much strength. It would be my choice as the culprit for your guitar back problem.

As an alternative you might try using Fish Glue (available from Lee Valley and other places) as it has good strength properties and is about as easy to use as the 'Liquid Hide' type. I've used Fish Glue (not a brand- made from fish skins!) and it seems good- dries very hard and clear and is strong as well. Not waterproof, but none of the hide glues are either.

Cheers

John

You should read the current issue of Fine Woodworking. A lot of the mystiques of glue selection are blown away!

Dean

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Dean

Apparently Fine Woodworking has some sort of 'glue test' in their latest issue- I just saw it mentioned on the web.
One conclusion from their testing is that liquid hide glue works as well as hot hide glue!
This was certainly not my experience the one time I used Liquid Hide Glue about 30yrs ago- my attitude is the same as Evan's!.
So more research may be needed- but not on my guitars!

Cheers

John

i bought some of that stuff years ago when i started...

used it once.

put it straight in the bin.

read frets.com for great info on glues...the best bit is that the strongest glue you can find is actually food - clear gelatin from the supermarket. Frank Ford is the 'Don'

put me right off my jelly and ice cream!

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www.theguitarrepairworkshop.com

The liquid hide glue they used was not the Titebond kind.  It was some specialty brand, and it tested pretty well.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Another thought! I noticed that the hide glue, both hot and liquid, had the strongest bonds in medium tight fitting joints vs very tight or loose joints.  Tells me that too much pressure on a hide glue joint could be a negative thing.  Anyone have a thought on that?

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

i bought one bottle of franklins(titebond manufacturer) liquid hide glue once about 8 or none years ago. i thought it might do for an easily reversable glue in very low stress applications. then the stuff wouldn't cure for days. into the bin!!!

and i haven't tried it again.

i've not yet looked at the fine woodworking article referred to above, but remember they are rating glues for furniture making, not instrument making, and aside from the fact that both involve wood, not too much is the same.

Is "Fish Glue" easier to use than "Hot Hide Glue"?

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

DON'T USE TITEBOND LIQUED HIDE GLUE!!!
I used it on a fiddle I made a couple of years ago and I had the neck come
off on me , the seam between the ribs also slipped!
I took it to a luthier to show him and he opened the case and the neck was
off he said that that glue never dries all the way or something. bad
choice

[QUOTE=Dave Rickard] Is "Fish Glue" easier to use than "Hot Hide Glue"? [/QUOTE]
Dave:
Yes. It is used at room temperature and comes pre-mixed.
Using it is very similar to using Titebond-type glues, except that fish glue has much higher tack and a longer open time. It dries 'glassy' hard- like good hot hide glue.
The Lee Valley Tools website has some tech info about it- there's a link from the product description pages.

It is also relatively cheap.

I like it.

Cheers
John

[QUOTE=WaddyT] The liquid hide glue they used was not the Titebond kind. It was some specialty brand, and it tested pretty well.
[/QUOTE]

Waddy, was it Patrick Edwards "Old Brown Glue"? I know it gets a lot of discussion for restoration work.

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

The Fine Woodworking article is very interesting. Good ol' yellow glue did
great, and the liquid hide glue, "Old Brown Glue" brand, did just as well as
hhg in most categories. I'm not saying I'm ready to go buy the stuff, but
it does make me curious. Maybe this type has something going???

Polyurethane glue, by the way, was the BIG loser, which I was glad to see.
I hate that stuff.

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

The only two glues I use on my instruments are Hot Hide Glue and Fish Glue. Braces, bridge etc are glued with hot hide. Everything else that needs a longer open time is glued with Fish glue. Both glues dry very hard with a low damping, but are in their own ways reversible.

If I could only have one glue, then for ease of use I'd have to go with Fish glue.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

As I understand it, there are mainly two types of fish glue; fish glue made from cod bladders and "isinglass", the very finest which is made from Russian sturgeon bladders. The "isisnglass" is prepared more or less like hide glue, while the cod fish glue is liquid without the help of any additives. Isinglass is known since ancient times, cod fish glue was first made in the 1870's IIRC, which makes it quite modern in comparison; it still has a bit longer track record than Titebond though!

Shawn has reported here that they used a lot of fish glue in Romanillos' shop in Spain, and I believe he said it is quite popular among several Spanish luthiers as well. Several members here use it, I wish I could remember some more names. Paul Woolson perhaps?

I am just learning to use it, there is certainly not much to it. I use it mosly in applications where I previously would be more comfortable using Titebond, such as gluing the plates to the rim. In some instances the long cure time is a disadvantage, and I will use hide glue instead. The cured glue appears and acts a lot like cured (hot) hide glue. I have no experience with liquid hide glue.

I you live, or your instrument will live in very humid conditions, fish glue may not be your best choice. There have been anecdotal reports of glue failure due to high humidity, although I don't think any OLF'ers have had similar first hand experiences.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Does anyone have some ideas on the best way to reverse fish glue? I tried removing a bridge recently with heat and tried getting some moisture in by dipping the knife in boiling water but the job was not easy.

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David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

I forgot to mention; I have never used isinglass, but it is supposed to be the best natural glue known to man. If somebody wants to try some and give us a report, please do! You can get it from Dick GMBH, it is only 242,76 EUR ($325) for 1/2 kg!

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

One of my students is putting together an entire guitar with fish glue. So far, so good, but we shall see.

Franklin's liquid hide glue is worse than worthless, IMO; it makes you think you're doing something useful when you're just storing up trouble for the future. I have heard that it's not too bad when it's really fresh, but I have not ghad time to hang around the plant to get it fresh enough.

Somebody once gave me a bag of sturgeon bladders, and I mixed up a batch. It is very clear, and the couple of test joints I made with it seemed strong. It just smells so bad......

I find it easiest to dissassemble hot hide glue joints dry: you take advantage of the fact that the glue is much more brittle than the wood. I have not tried to get fish glue joints apart as yet, but given the similarity I'd expect it to work about the same way.

You can starve hide glue joints by mixing it too thin, putting on too many clamps, or by warming the joint too much. Ask me how I know.... No, on second thought, don't. ;(

Wow - "Gobs" of great info.  Should have asked the question before I used the stuff?

Thanks to all

[QUOTE=Evan Gluck]I would only use it to attach a label to the bottle that said DO NOT USE!!![/QUOTE]

Well, the problem with that is that the label would eventually fall off and then you might think it's ok to use, and of course the stuff sucks, so leave off the label and throw it in the trash. Or re-bottle it and give it to someone you don't like and tell them it's fish glue. Heh heh.

My first 2 guitars were made with Titebond.
My next four were made with LMI White.
The 2 I am working on now are 100% Fish Glue. So far, I like fish glue at. It dries harder than LMI white and Titebond. It is easy to clean up.
One thing I really like about it is that it is so hard, it does not clog sandpaper like LMI or Titebond.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.