Official Luthiers Forum!

Today a racial slur was made here at the OLF for possibly the first time. At least to my knowledge.
The word was one that in my life time I have never heard. After doing some research on the web I hope
to never hear it again. Its a SICK word to say the least.

First I want to apologize to Hesh, and Andy Zimmerman, who have personally contacted me about this comment. I think also apologies are needed to anyone else that may have been offended by this comment.
I honestly thought it was a typo and posted a comment to that extent, I made this call based on ignorance of the word and its implication. For that I am sorry.
Since then my email inbox has not stopped.


It must be noted that the OLF, meaning Brock and I do NOT condone this type of thing. Hate and racism has no place here.

I hope this is the only time I ever have to address this issue.

Thanks
Lance

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

[QUOTE=LanceK]I hope this is the only time I ever have to address this issue.[/QUOTE]
Indeed. I haven't read the offending comment, but from your description the person who made it should be apologizing, not you. I believe I can say that the vast majority of us here agree that that sort of junk has no place on the OLF--or anywhere else.

Well done Lance,

I to think this needed saying and applaud your decision to step in.

Regardless of whether or not such a term was used in malice or tactlessly applied out of context and in jest, it was insensitive, inappropriate, and just plain wrong for it's inclusion here at the OLF.

The OLF is an International forum, we have an extremely diverse membership which should be considered by all before posting and I agree that in this instance, apologies are most certainly in order.

Regards

Kim

Thank you, Lance


Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Yes,That was well said Hesh and thanks Lance.

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

Thanks, Lance...despite differences we may have from time to time, I consider you a class act and friend. Your statement was welcome and needed.

A great big Shalom to our Jewish brothers and know that we are on the side of peace and respect.

Hesh...thanks for the strong character, broad shoulders and ability to forgive and move on. I love you, Bro!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

So, what's your next axe gonna be then Hesh

Cheers

Kim

Hopefully steps have been taken to insure this person never has the opportunity to do anything like this here again.

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

Lance, thank you for your offer of a strong stance on this and related issues. I too hope to never hear something like this again.

I know you know where I stand with this, I won't bring that up here.

I can lay this to rest now.

Thank You.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

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"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

"Great Big Shalom" to you to JJ, thanks for all your support. I caught the tail end of that thread and am glad the OLF remains a place for nice folks to be regardless of
backrounds. Unless of course you build dreadnaughts
Best, Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

[QUOTE=Evan Gluck] "Great Big Shalom" to you to JJ, thanks for all your support. I caught the tail end of that thread and am glad the OLF remains a place for nice folks to be regardless of
backrounds. Unless of course you build dreadnaughts
Best, Evan[/QUOTE]



Yeah, Evan. I build dreads and love banjos!!

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=old man] [QUOTE=Evan Gluck] "Great Big Shalom" to you to JJ, thanks for all your support. I caught the tail end of that thread and am glad the OLF remains a place for nice folks to be regardless of
backrounds. Unless of course you build dreadnaughts
Best, Evan[/QUOTE]



Yeah, Evan. I build dreads and love banjos!!

Ron[/QUOTE]

I don't understand you liking Banjos, but heck I still like you!

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

     I agree that racial or rleigious slurs or insults have no place on any
public forum.

     We are friends here, though, and the occasional asking of how the
family is or how things at home are should never be an issue of question.

    Can you imagine the level of moderation Lance and Brock would be
forced to maintain if they had to delete or moderate every time someone
asked, "Hey, how's the wife?" or "Were you able to get your vehicle
repaired after it broke down on the way to Hesh's house?"

    We live lives that lutherie is a great part of and those lives sometimes
affect our time in the shop and the quality of it so they're going to get
mentioned and discussed at times....it's just part of being friends and
family in a communtity.

    Just be polite and considerate and tolerant of the feelings and lives of
others and it will be surprizing how truly easy things can go. Text is a
shallow media and is regularly guilty of falling short of catching the
intentions, mood or feelings of the writer. We've all read or even fallen
prey to arguments that may not have ever started had the points at hand
been exchanged in conversation, whether in person or by phone.

    Because of the reduced ability to express ourselves in text or to fully
comprehend the meaning or intention of someone else, we need to give
wide allowance for the possibility that someone really doesn;t mean it the
way we may be taking it. Give the benefit of doubt whenever possible and
assume the best in people rather than taking the low road and assuming
the worst was intended.


     Aside from all of this, though, racial, religious and ethnic slurs or
cutting someone's intelligence or abilities have no place here at the OLF
or any forum.

    Great handling of the issue Lance. Good on you, my friend.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Thanks for your comments and insights Kevin
Some of us appreciate YOUR wisdom.

Walter Kiralla

    I was intrigued to find out what the term was that offended some and
found it interesting that it did so. Words are sometimes taken beyond
their actual definitions and have inferred meanings tagged to those
definitions as unofficial or cultural addendums to direct their meanings
accordingly and there's nothing wrong with that, but those original
definitions still exist for the fundamental use of the words they represent.

    Just as importantly as we need to carefully choose our
words...especially when an edit button isn't present to provide a second
chance in hindsight, we need to know what the words that are carefully
chosen by others actually mean or imply at the point of context in which
they are used. Some terms that can be offensive can sometimes derive
their ability to offend from cultural or historical things that everyone may
not be aware of and, so, may not have any offensive intent or implication
on the author's side.

    A good rule of thumb for general communication is to not immediately
assume that offense was intentional, but maybe to ask the author of a
comment, "Hey did you realize that there was another meaning to that
word that could be considered offensive or hurtful by some?" instead of,
"Did you hear what he called me or said about me? Let's get 'em!"

   It may be hard to believe by the way I post or by the time that I like to
spend in conversation with people, but I'm a great listener for the very
simple reason that I really enjoy hearing what people have to
say....whether I agree with it or not. I don't even mind a heated discussion
in which things can be said that aren't offered with the kindest tone as
long as things don't get personal and away from the point simply because
I appreciate passion and certainly show my share of it on many issues.

   I honestly believe that my listening does far more good for anyone that
I enjoy exchanged communication with than any amount of talking that I
can ever offer, but too many times, listening is alot more work and is
avoided because of that amny times. The American process of
communication has become to spew your point as aggressively and loudly
as possible and then use the time that the other person is talking to load
your guns for your next turn to talk. It's sad but true and has hurt us as a
people for the past few generations.

    This is certainly not intended to offend or defend anyone or anything,
but to possibly contribute to the overall community dynamic of the OLF
that still stands leaps and bounds above that of any other forum on the
planet, in my opinion. This place is a refuge for me whether I'm posting
or just lurking and enjoying the posts of others. The list of folks that I
regularly look for posts from has grown to where I don't even try to keep
track anymore.....there are just too many great people here to keep track
of.

    Sure, it's all about guitars and guitar building, but the last time I
checked, behind every great guitar was a great guitar builder and the life
he's living both in and out of his shop. There are plenty of nameless
guitars being pumped out of production houses by the hundreds and
thousands every day and they have their place in the market and in the
hearts and hands of the players who own, play and love them, but give
me the small shop where the guy's blood and sweat can still be seen in
every guitar that comes out of it and I'm in lutherie heaven.

All the best to all the best on the web,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I am not a jew, but my wife is. I find the aforementioned slur to be highly offensive and by no means anything other than a malicious comment. Never forget, never accept this type of demeaning insult. Bump this person from OLF! Do what you know is right.

Dean

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Dean

Kevin,

Your post in this thread is another fine example, to what, I believe makes the OLF such a great
place to be.

The cause’s for a thread of this type, from what I’ve seen, are far and few between, and I do
believe they are dragged out a bit much sometimes. However, there is also a prompting for others
to say positive things. And, that is a fine example of the inherent compassionate nature of human beings.
I can honestly say, that I’ve met very, very, few people in my life, that I didn’t like, and I
think it is interesting, that the few that exemplify the negative side of human nature, seem to get a
lot of attention. Perhaps, this is the intent. The nightly news is certainly a perfect example of this.

I could say a lot more on this issue, but, a lot has already been said. However, I would like to end
on a quote from my Grand-pappy.

“Anyone can say derogatory things about someone else, it takes real inner strength to be polite
and kind to people”

Robert

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Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!

In a personal dispute that isn’t resolved there are usually two losers. Launching a personal attack on someone results in two losers. No one wins! This last episode we all lost!

It’s extremely rare that I wade in on the “nasty threads” posted by some of our members or the subsequent “behaviour correction” threads from our forum Hosts.   Normally something that really gets under my skin passes in a day or two, this last episode I have to tell you continues to really bother me. I am not angry with anyone, just very deeply disappointed and saddened that a simple misunderstanding couldn’t easily be resolved.

Kevin Gallagher hit the nail on the head saying, “Text is a shallow media and is regularly guilty of falling short of catching the intentions, mood or feelings of the writer.”

If you see a post that really bothers you or you feel an inappropriate comment has been made or directed at you or a friend, send the alleged offending party a polite PM before going postal (ballistic, orbital…you pick). Give that person the benefit of the doubt and don’t assume the worst before you react.    I will guarantee you that 99.9% of the time you’ll discover that nothing malicious was intended. Sometimes it’s an unfortunate choice of words or in the most recent instance a “word” that the writer genuinely didn’t realize was offensive. Polite communication offline is an effective means of dispute resolution. If the issue isn’t resolved offline, keep it there and don’t air your dirty laundy or hurt feelings on the OLF for all too see.   Have the capacity to forgive, don’t forget, but don’t hold a grudge either.

Our good friend Uncle Bob posted a thread containing his thoughts on a number of suggested OLF changes. Lance/Brock, I hope you seriously consider his suggestions and implement them.

We have all been made aware of the OLF software limitations. If it’s an issue of money – tell us how much it will cost to fix it and lets see if we find a solution. If it’s a technology issue, let us know. Amongst the members here there is a lot of computer savy. The fix might be right under our collective noses.

[Polite Rant Over] Thanks for listening.

[QUOTE=Dean]I am not a jew, but my wife is. I find the aforementioned slur to be highly offensive and by no means anything other than a malicious comment. Never forget, never accept this type of demeaning insult. Bump this person from OLF! Do what you know is right.


[/QUOTE]

I left this board about a year ago because I did not like some of the things that were going on here. I cam back a couple of months ago and have been lurking for a while. I was just getting ready ready to start posting again.

Then this incident took place. Someone said something stupid, someone was offended by what he said. The issue was discussed and apologies were made.

Then I read the message above and I decided that it is probably not worth beginning to post here again.

Jim

[QUOTE=ToddStock]
1400+ other folks here that you likely can get along with...the odds are heavily in your favor.


[/QUOTE]

Todd,

It's not that I don't think there are nice folks here that are easy to get along with. I am just disturbed of the tone of some of the comments here. And, I've seen the same thing on other forums recently too so my feelings are just not because of this incident.

I was hoping that this forum would be the refuge from Internet forum drama that has become all too common and I am disappointed to see it here too. Frankly, I am getting a bit tired of Internet forums (fora?) in general and hope this can be different.

That said, here's what I am going to do. I am going to ignore the threads that produce angst. And ever time I see one, I'll try to think of a guitarmaking-related topic that I can start instead.

Jim

Jim, sounds like a plan, I love the guitarmaking discussions, the other I avoid.

Welcome to the Guitarmakers OLF

Mike
White Oak, Texas

Kevin, your words are so wise. Thank you.

I believe there is a "silent majority" on this forum that is here to talk about guitar making and repair. Let the discussion of what we're here for continue! Long live the OLF!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/