Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sun Dec 01, 2024 5:38 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:05 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 115
Location: United States

I had the great privalage of attending Charles Fox's week long guitar building course last week.  It's was a fantastic time!  Charles is very inovative in his approach and technique, and I had my first exposure to a doulbe top.  One of the finished instruments that he had on hand has to be the best sounding guitar that I have ever heard.


Are there many of you out there using some form of double/laminated top on steel string guitars?  I would love to hear pros and cons along with details on your approach, i.e. what wood do you use for the inside liner, are you using Nomex, radius of the top, bracing changes, etc.


Thanks, Doug



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:16 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 4:19 am
Posts: 70
Location: United States

Last summer, on the closing day of the Guild of American Luthiers (GAL) convention, Charles Fox gave a slide show presentation on how he makes composite tops for his Ergo guitars using Nomex honeycomb.


 


His presentation was so straight-forward that John Fitzgerald, a fellow SIMSCal (Stringed Instrument Makers of Southern California) member who was sitting next to me, and I turned to each other and said, "I can do that." And so we did.


 


Only different.


 


In a departure from Charles Fox and others, who make their composite tops from 2 tops, routing an excavation into the bottom layer to accept a Nomex cut-out, we made our composite top from three layers. The reason came from the literature: routing an excavation is risky because, unless it is held down securely, as with a vacuum system, the thin floor of the excavation is likely to be sucked-up into the router and ruined. Thus, we chose to laminate a wood middle layer, cut to an outline similar to Charles Fox's unexcavated area, to the bottom layer, which was the same thickness as the floor of the Fox excavation.


 


Thus, where Charles started with a back plate .065" thick and routed out .035", we thicknessed the back plate of our composite top, to .030" - .035" using an ordinary Ryobi thickness sander.


 


On top of this, we laminated a wood-and-Nomex middle layer .080" thick, which is the height of the LMI Nomex, on a flat surface in a vacuum clamping fixture. First, we glued the wooden element to the back layer using LMI instrument makers glue, clamped them on a flat surface in the vacuum fixture, and ran the vacuum for a couple of hours.


 


Then we expoxied the Nomex into the resulting 'excavation' with System Three T-88 epoxy, also on a flat surface, and let that lamination cure for 8 hours under vacuum.


 





When cured, we carefully sanded the Nomex side of the laminated plate(s) down to .105" - .110" on the thickness sander, using progressively finer grades of sandpaper. 


 


While the middle layer was curing, we thicknessed the top layer, the show face - with rosette installed, but soundhole intact - to about .035". Fortunately, the rosette was set to just a couple of thousandths less than this, so that it was "supported" (or at least covered) on the bottom by the thinnest layer of spruce. This was just dumb luck.


 


Finally, we applied epoxy to both the middle layer and the show face, and in another departure from Charles Fox and others, placed the stack face down on a 28' radius form that was cut-down to fit in the vacuum fixture, and let it cure for 8 hours under vacuum. When removed, the top retained this radius. And was very, very stiff down the middle.


 


Of course, this is the short version of our steel string composite top making. Along the way, there was a bit of empirical testing of whether (and how) to apply the epoxy to the Nomex, as Charles and others do, or to apply it to the adjoining solid surfaces. And, as you would expect, a couple of the steps were done more than once.


 


According to his presentation, Charles Fox uses a 12' radius for his Ergo top and essentially no bracing, allowing for string tension to contribute to and maintain the radius. He recommended to us that a more conventional radius should probably have some light bracing, which we did.


 



As with many of Charles Fox's post-presentation "what if…" questions – and there were many – he concluded, "I don't know the answer. I've haven't made that many composite top instruments. Give it a try, and let me know how it turns out. "


 


We plan to.


 


Larry


 


ps - I am prep-ing the guitar for finish right now.


 


If I knew how to post pictures, I would.


 


I have more details in a presentation that I am putting together for SIMSCal, our guitarmaking club. I'd post that, but for my dial-up modem.


 


I'm sure that I'll have it figured out by the time the finish is dry - and the bridge is on.


 


L



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:29 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:46 am
Posts: 2969
Location: United States
I've also made a few double tops. My process is pretty similar to the above but I use two tops and route the pocket out for the nomex core. Thicknesses are pretty similar to above.
One thing I might add is that these are very stable tops and you can lighten up on your standard bracing.


_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:15 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:43 am
Posts: 1529
Location: Morral, OH
Yes, I am building Double Tops. Using many of Randy Reynolds techniques (as he shared the stage with Charles Fox at the Healdsburg presentation in 2005 that I attended and wrote the white paper that was handed out to the attendees). I use two thin top plates, Nomex core of .060", T-88 adhesive, .060" inner bridge and soundhole reinforcements. I do not use any perimeter wood core.

Go bar deck to laminate all of it together using a 30' dish. The end product requires very light bracing and the results will bring a huge to your mug. Its a lot of work but well worth it.


_________________
tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:52 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:05 pm
Posts: 3350
Location: Bakersville, NC
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I am building double tops too. I make a double top (no nomex) and a semi-double top that I am actually buiding 2 guitars with. My full double top was very successfull, great sustain and volume paired with an amazing tone. Its my own design and consists of a top layer at about .060" and the inside layer is hollowed out, no Nomex is used. Well worth the extra time. I do mine with a veneering bag and a vacuum pump.

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:21 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 4:19 am
Posts: 70
Location: United States

Thanks, Hesh, for the tutorial on how to upload photos. I hope these help clarify how we made and braced our double-top.


Here is a close-up of Nomex, for those who have never seen it. The material looks like wood shavings lightly coated with epoxy.



Here the middle layer of cedar and Nomex are mounted on the interior sitka spruce 'plate'. The cedar was quartersawn, but not bookmatched. The show face is Engelmann, which we used because it is a handsome top set. The guitar is a 000.



And here is the initial bracing. Because the cedar in the mid-layer, i.e. plywood, stiffened the top down the middle so well, we moved the X-brace below the bridge patch. (The guitar will have an Elliot/Doolin-like pinless bridge, but the patch was put in because the PB piano wire pins are seated through the top, and because the patch acts as a brace across the lower bout.) Because the Nomex has no grain structure, it is equally flexible in all directions. Accordingly, the brace is most effective under the Nomex, not under the cedar. 1/4" thich, about 3/4" tall and "gabled".



After the box was put together, the area just below the soundhole seemed a bit to 'resiliant', and we put in a little transverse harmonic brace just south of the soundhole; .020" thick, 3/4" tall and releived 3mm on either side of the soundhole. Seems to have done the trick.


Hope this helps.


Larry



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:27 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:31 am
Posts: 3134
Location: United States
Thanks Larry. Very informative (and interesting too!)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:06 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:46 am
Posts: 2969
Location: United States
"Because the Nomex has no grain structure, it is equally flexible in all directions."


Larry, this statement is not true. All hexagonal honeycomb is stiffer in the ribbon direction, that is the direction the sheets were stacked up in when building the block of honeycomb.
You can easily verify this by flexing some honeycomb. It will flex better in one direction than the other. And believe it or not this will translate into the panel/top. So you can make even a better top by paying attention to this.
It's a small difference when compared to wood, but you may as take advantage of it since it's there.

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:43 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:21 am
Posts: 2924
Location: Changes when ever I move..Australia
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
[QUOTE=Tim McKnight] Yes, I am building Double Tops. Using many of Randy Reynolds techniques (as he shared the stage with Charles Fox at the Healdsburg presentation in 2005 that I attended and wrote the white paper that was handed out to the attendees). I use two thin top plates, Nomex core of .060", T-88 adhesive, .060" inner bridge and soundhole reinforcements. I do not use any perimeter wood core.

Go bar deck to laminate all of it together using a 30' dish. The end product requires very light bracing and the results will bring a huge to your mug. Its a lot of work but well worth it.

[/QUOTE]

Tim,

I am have trouble locating .060" nomex here in AU, any advise on were I could get enough for 2 or 3 guitars??

Cheers

Kim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:12 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 4:19 am
Posts: 70
Location: United States

Jim,


I think I see what you mean. If I pull the honeycomb along the 3 sides of the hex, it seems to stretch a bit more easily than in the 2 sided direction. 


You are correct.


Fortunately, the Nomex from LMI was cut so that it was only possible to get a 000 shape with the stronger axis running in the direction of the grain. (I just checked!)


 


 



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:41 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 115
Location: United States

Larry,


If I understand your description correctly, you used cedar in the middle layer on the same plane with the Nomex, Engelman for the show face and sitka for the inner face.  Did you choose sitka for the inner face for strength?  I've been thinking about using cedar on the inside to save weight - is there a reason not to use cedar on the inside?


Another question - why not glue up the whole sandwich in one operation? 


Tim - do you have any issues with your binding or purfling at the top edge without having solid wood at the perimeter?  How thick are your plates on the inside and outside?


Peter - do you have an empty void between your inner and outer plates since you aren't using Nomex?


Finally, does anyone have a problem with the Nomex telegraphing through the top?


Thanks to all.


Doug



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:38 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 4:19 am
Posts: 70
Location: United States

Doug,


We used spruce on the interior to get as much spruce sound as possible. Sitka is strong and tough, and we had never thicknessed to .030" before. It seemed to make sense.


In our case, the Nomex was too tall to laminate in one operation. We had to thickness it down before gluing the show-face on. The best time for that was after it was laminated to the interior plate. I suspect that even with the ideal thickness of Nomex you might run up against the open-time limits of the epoxy; it's a labor intensive process wetting just the edges of the Nomex - and we had never done this before.


The Nomex doesn't have the strength to telegraph through the show-face, but be careful clamping your braces in place.


 



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:39 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 4:19 am
Posts: 70
Location: United States

"The Nomex doesn't have the strength to telegraph through the show-face, but be careful clamping your braces in place."


Oops! Better to say that vacuum clamping didn't cause any telegraphing issues for us. I used a go-bar deck for installing the braces 'cuz that's what I'm more familiar with. And it's easy to clean-up squeeze out.



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:32 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:43 am
Posts: 1529
Location: Morral, OH
I had mine custom made in 4'x8' sheets. You can try Aerospace Composite Products in Calif, they may be able to help you. My Nomex is stiffer in one direction too.

_________________
tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:36 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:43 am
Posts: 1529
Location: Morral, OH
^^^ Oops, my post above was meant to go to Kim Larkin.

Doug O:
No, I have not had any issues with binding adhering to the edges of the tops without the outer core rim. I want to keep my tops as light as possible and this just saves more weight by omitting this piece. I have used white LMI glue and lately thin CA for bindings. I think the CA saves a bit more weight as less glue is used.


_________________
tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com