Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm in too! 

Well, looks like I'll buy that laser head for the cnc I'm building after all!

Kidding...

I would like to try some also. Several guitars worth probably.

I like the way Kevin sold the laser-darkened angle section as a racing stripe "feature". Smart guy.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Since everybody else is getting them, I will stick with my old funky home made ones, and it will be a big selling point in my marketing hype; in-house made liners, WOW! This guy is GOOD!   

I agree that they look nice though.

Anyways, I never understood why solid or reverse kerf (and probably these glue-filled-inside-kerf linings as well) liners should make a more rigid box than regular triangular ones, or single “tentellones” (sp?) for that matter. Once the box I closed the plates will lock the joint in their plane; if there was any movement in that joint the lining would have to distort or the joint would have to open. An effective way of making the side / plate joint more rigid would be to make the linings wider, not that I think it is necessary unless you use very wide and deep purfling.

I understand that the side assembly will be more rigid with these "solid" linings than with traditional kerfed linings during construction, but once the top and back are glued on I don’t think type of lining matters statically.

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Me too!

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I apologize for the numerous spelling and grammar mistakes in my post. Is it readable?

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

I'm in

_________________
Say what you do, Do what you say.

They do look way cool. I would try some.

For many builders time is money as they fight time and production shedules to try to make as many guitars as possible or catch up with backlogs. Kevin came up with many ingenius jigs to maximize production and quality while saving time. But he always tries to come up with ideas that help embelish the guitar, both inside and outside the box. Thats why he is where he is now.

While I do agree that solid linings may be better to help reinforce the sides, they do take a considerable amount of time to make and install. Besides, my opinion off course, the A4 linings make the box look awesome after installed....

They are also about the same width as traditional kerfing. Aprox .222"

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

...and I still say that traditional kerfed lingings will make the box just as strong as any other type of lining, provided the outside dimensions are the same.

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

[QUOTE=Arnt] ...and I still say that traditional kerfed lingings will make the box just as strong as any other type of lining, provided the outside dimensions are the same.[/QUOTE]

I agree!

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

[QUOTE=ToddStock]Yse, ti is fin, rAnt...



My kingdom for an edit button (or at least my stash of red spruce brace wood)[/QUOTE]

Here is your edit button Todd:   Downloadable.
This will be my first red spruce brace wood. WOW!

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I just hope, if they are available, that they are made with one of the mahoganies that can be shipped out of the US....

 

Laurie

_________________
____________________________________
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.

I'd vote for Spanish cedar, too--luthier's perfume!

These would definitely solve a problem I was going to have to face. Otherwise I'd have to use tentellones.

That looks amazing and sounds like it would be very user freindly for newbies being that you can set it in as one piece.

I think I would have to grab some myself.

[QUOTE=Arnt] ...and I still say that traditional kerfed lingings will make the box just as strong as any other type of lining, provided the outside dimensions are the same.[/QUOTE]


Give the Fox style capped linings a try and let us know what you think then...    I was shocked at the difference, it was night and day over traditional kerfed linings.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Oh, I'm getting good and controversial so far today! Why stop now?

I noticed a marked differnece in the rim stiffness when I switched from standard to reversed kerfed linings. There might be a slight improvement from those to the Fox style in rim stiffness, simply because they are made taller.
The question is, does it really matter once the top and back are on? There's a heck of a lot of great old and new guitars that use those tiny triangular ones with great success. I keep thinking about some of the fantastic guitars I've seem come out of Julius Borges' shop, built to old Martin traditional specs for the most part. They are some of the very best sounding guitars I've ever heard and played.
I'm just not sure how much difference the reverse or fox linings actually make, except that it is easier to get a box good and square and then get the plates on with a more rigid rim.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I look at the difference between kerfed and solid (and to some extent reverse)linings when you glue the top or back on as being like the difference between spot welding something and continuous welding it. Sure the spot welding will hold it good and fast but will it be as stiff or as solid as the continuous weld.

I like the solid weld myself, so I have graduated from standard kerf through reverse kerf to solid linings.
That said it does ofcourse depend on your builing style and you sonic aims for the instrument. So, probably it's a case of there being no right answer.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Brock, do you mean these will make the finished box stronger, or that the rim assembly will be stronger during construction? If it is the latter I am sure you are right, but as I said in my first post (regarding traditional kerfed linings) Once the box I closed the plates will lock the joint in their plane; if there was any movement in that joint the lining would have to distort or the joint would have to open.   The say I see it, what influences the strength of this joint in the finished instrument is the outside dimension of the linings; the size of the "constructive triangle" if you will, not whether this triangle is continuous (as in the various types of solid linings) or in shorter sections; statically these will all act the same in the complete construction.

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Sorry I type so slowly that Don and Colin managed to answer before I was done.

Colin, I don't know much about welding so I have no comment to you analogy, but I just don't see how there could be any movement in this joint with kerfed linings unless the joint opened or the linings themselves distort.

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Arnt,

I believe the theory is that solid linings, Fox linings, et al make the rim of the finished guitar stronger and this rim stiffness translates into a better sounding, louder guitar. 

I got a chance to see both the Ryan A4 kerfing as well as the Fox capped lining at Charles' shop last week.  The A4 is definately very cool - you can't help but be amazed that a piece of wood can move and bend the way that is does with his ingenious approach.  But if stiffer sides are the goal, I'm of the opinion that the Fox style or a solid lining will do a better job meeting that goal.

I'm with Arnt. I don't think extra stiffness is needed once the box is assembled. And, I believe a little flex is better than very stiff as the top/back expand/contract. Too stiff and something will give.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I'm certainly no expert.  But if I'm not mistaken, one of the prime motivations for doing double sides is to create a stiffer rim for the purpose of improved sound of the completed instrument.

I think these liners are fantastic looking. Whether they are better or not makes no difference because that is a question that cannot be answered.

Brock is going after a rock solid rim. Don is commenting on wonderful sounding guitars that have almost nothing for liners, just a small kerfed strip of wood, leaving the sides very flexible. BOTH make great guitars, or should I say, BOTH can be used in making great guitars.
Its more about that maker than the liner

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

[QUOTE=Arnt] Brock, do you mean these will make the finished box stronger, or that the rim assembly will be stronger during construction? If it is the latter I am sure you are right, but as I said in my first post (regarding traditional kerfed linings) Once the box I closed the plates will lock the joint in their plane; if there was any movement in that joint the lining would have to distort or the joint would have to open.   The say I see it, what influences the strength of this joint in the finished instrument is the outside dimension of the linings; the size of the "constructive triangle" if you will, not whether this triangle is continuous (as in the various types of solid linings) or in shorter sections; statically these will all act the same in the complete construction. [/QUOTE]


I am trying to stay out of the "better" discussion. We all know there are multiple ways to build. Some say light, some say heavy, some say light sides, some say stiff sides...

However, if you are just looking at the rim assemblies and their overall stiffness there is an incredible difference between regular linings and capped linings. It is more than "slight".

Double sides, coupled with Fox style linings produce a rim assembly so stiff that you could build the rest of the guitar outside the mold. They don't move or flex at all.

Again... I am not making a value statement... just sharing observations...   

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

There is always many different opinions like Brock said.
My opinion opinion is that I believe once the box is closed the difference is minimal and I strive for a easier install more flexible lining that looks a lot better once you peak in. IMO lighter is better and the visual aspect is very important to a customer too.

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com