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Although I believe Hesh, as well as all our Jewish community members, have the right to be offended by malicious use of language, from what I've seen here, that really wasn't the case. From my vantage point, Michael simply made a bad judgment call. I don't believe his intent was evil, it just hit a very sensitive nerve, and for this he has been thoroughly persecuted. I hope I can make it through the day without saying something someone doesn't like. Actually, I'm sure this post will offend someone.


Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Well said Ron. Wise as to your years.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I really hesitate to step in here and make any comment at all. But If it would be OK with everybody, I'd like to put this entire topic to rest. Ill leave it open, I am really just asking this as a favor.

Thanks!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Dear Hesh,
Take care and good luck! I hope you will find hapiness whereever you look!!
I wish you well and God's Blessings!!

walterK

We're just building instruments here. How can we get anything but enjoyment out of how somebody else builds. What's it got to do with anythnig but creativity and sawdust? What am I missing here. Be Happy!

_________________
Greg
http://garibaldiinstruments.com/

I know this thing needs to die a natural death, but it won’t because the aftermath of what “happened” is all backwards and wrong and it keeps festering.  I’m angry about it, but I’m going to do my best to stay rational and civil, and then I’ll be done with it.  Much needs to be said, however.  I know Mike Propsom.  He is an intelligent, talented, decent man.  He’s an accomplished musician, published writer, community activist and a builder of fine instruments, among many other things.  He’s got 30+ years of lutherie experience behind him that is clearly a vast and valuable resource to all of us on a forum such as this.  As a virtual footnote to a long and impressive list of community and charitable work of his that likely exceeds that of 99% of us, this is a man who once canceled his membership in the ACLU because that organization had supported the American Nazi Party’s right to march.  Anti-Semite?  Hardly.  He certainly didn’t ask for this to be written, and, if I know him, he’ll probably not be too happy with me for doing so.

 

What I want each and every one of you to know in no uncertain terms is that Hesh was not wronged in any way, shape or form.  That implies malicious intent.  He chose to be offended.  He chose to make himself a target.   He chose to make an embarrassing public spectacle of it.  He chose to cast himself in the role of a martyr.  I cannot explain why and I don’t want to conjecture.  These choices are what have damaged this forum and distracted it from its mission.  I may be vilified for these remarks and I couldn’t care less. Furthermore, I’m not going to publicly threaten to leave the OLF or issue a half-hearted notice of my departure to all of my dear friends or fish for your sympathy

 

In response to Hesh’s comparing his perceived plight to that of a victim of rape, Jim Samuel responded,

” ….  You talk about being a victim.....Just what were you a victim of? Someone said something you did not like.
  To compare yourself to a woman who is a rape victim is reprehensible. You were offended by a word. How does that equate to being the victim of a violent crime?
This whole thing is just ridiculous.”

 

Thank you Mr. Samuel.  I beg your indulgence in quoting you.  You have courage and insight.  I only wish I would have written what you did.

 

Yes, Mike’s word choice was certainly unfortunate, but responsibility lies with intent.  Mike was speaking to me – not Hesh. I repeat, he was speaking to me – not to Hesh, neither directly nor obliquely. The intent was to create an innocent play on words referring jokingly to “wreaking havoc” on his thread.  Nothing more.  That’s the REAL meaning of the word, my friends!  Any meaning or emotion beyond that is an artifact of one’s personal filters/experience/culture/whatever.  Having said all that, increasing one’s sensitivity to the usage of words that carry unintended ammunition is a really good thing and can be accomplished privately and tactfully and would have been hugely appreciated in this case – by Mike and certainly by the rest of us.  And the world would have been a somewhat better-educated place.  That would have been the mark of real integrity.  Alas, it’ll go down in the books as a missed opportunity.

 

Honestly, I’ve been wanting to just let this lie and go away, but my friend has been unjustly attacked and significantly hurt while many fawn over Hesh’s latest plea for sympathy for the “wound” from a bullet he deliberately and knowingly jumped in front of.  I can’t just let it pass.  Public self-flagellation/self-victimization is what should not be tolerated here.

 

If constant stroking is what you crave, use your lutherie skills and earn it.

 

Loren, I can see where you're coming from, and given your friendship and
knowledge of things we don't know, I can see why you might be angry.

In all honesty, I've done the same thing. I said something in French, not
knowing it had a cultural meaning, and was called on it by AnthonyZ.

Look up a few books on social linguistics and the social re-construction
of meaning in language...."linguistic social pragmatics."

I understand that it may not have been the intent, and that someone may
know only one shade/meaning of a word, but as it has always been tied
to anti-semite persecution, the meaning has gone through a recognized
change.

Hesh was also not comparing himself to the victim of rape; he was
alluding to revictimization, something I also tried to allude to in my
original post.

"Why were you walking down that street?!" "You never should have been
there in the first place." "You were wearing what?!" These are comments
that suggest the victim is at fault for being the target of a crime. Just as
comments even in this thread make it seem that Hesh is at fault and
should apologize for being effected by something very closely tied to the
heritage of himself and people he loves.

I'm only posting this because it's something constructive I'm able to add.

    Hesh,

   Weren't you just leaving the OLF a few weeks ago for another situation
that made you uncomfortable and decided to stay after a parade of
support and pleas from friends to stay? I was really surprized to pop in
tonight to see this thread.

   As sacred as the things that we hold dear as part of our faith or
heritage are the very things that make them up. I'd venture to say that in
the system of teachings that form the foundation of your sensitivity to a
term such as the one that was used in this case (even though used with
no malice) will include something resembling forgiveness being a virtue
that should be extended as often as we have opportunity to do so.

    The events that made the addendum to the actual definition of the
word used certainly did happen and it wouldbe, and is, childish, political
or foolish to deny them at all or for any reason and the deep sensitivity
that those affected by them is very sad and understandable thing. Had
there been any intention to create a cruel context for the term, I'd be one
of the loudest advocates for ostrcizing the culprit, but that wasn;t the
case here, so apologies and forgiveness were both in order and
acceptable.

    Glad you're hanging in there, bud.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

While I choose not to comment otherwise, I think it's worth more than a footnote that both Hesh and Mario stated that a significant (if not dominant) reason for their leaving was the content of a number of private messages they got.

Perhaps our problem is that we, as a group, have too much judgment to dole out and not enough integrity to do it in public? It really irks me that this place is losing some of its main contributors because people feel the need to have their say, but not be held accountable for it.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

[QUOTE=Loren Schulte] <P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>I know this thing needs to die a natural death, but it won’t because the aftermath of what “happened” is all backwards and wrong and it keeps festering.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I’m angry about it, but I’m going to do my best to stay rational and civil, and then I’ll be done with it.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Much needs to be said, however.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I know Mike Propsom.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He is an intelligent, talented, decent man.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He’s an accomplished musician, published writer, community activist and a builder of fine instruments, among many other things.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He’s got 30+ years of lutherie experience behind him that is clearly a vast and valuable resource to all of us on a forum such as this.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>As a virtual footnote to a long and impressive list of community and charitable work of his that likely exceeds that of 99% of us, this is a man who once canceled his membership in the ACLU because that organization had supported the American Nazi Party’s right to march.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Anti-Semite?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hardly.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He certainly didn’t ask for this to be written, and, if I know him, he’ll probably not be too happy with me for doing so.

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>What I want each and every one of you to know in no uncertain terms is that Hesh was not wronged in any way, shape or form.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That implies malicious intent.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He chose to be offended.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He chose to make himself a target.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">   </SPAN>He chose to make an embarrassing public spectacle of it.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He chose to cast himself in the role of a martyr.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I cannot explain why and I don’t want to conjecture.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>These choices are what have damaged this forum and distracted it from its mission.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I may be vilified for these remarks and I couldn’t care less. Furthermore, I’m not going to publicly threaten to leave the OLF or issue a half-hearted notice of my departure to all of my dear friends or fish for your sympathy

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p>

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>In response to Hesh’s comparing his perceived plight to that of a victim of rape, Jim Samuel responded,

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>” ….<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You talk about being a victim.....Just what were you a victim of? Someone said something you did not like.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>To compare yourself to a woman who is a rape victim is reprehensible. You were offended by a word. How does that equate to being the victim of a violent crime?This whole thing is just ridiculous.”

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p>

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Thank you Mr. Samuel.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I beg your indulgence in quoting you.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You have courage and insight.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I only wish I would have written what you did.

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p>

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Yes, Mike’s word choice was certainly unfortunate, but responsibility lies with intent.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Mike was speaking to me – not Hesh. I repeat, he was speaking to me – not to Hesh, neither directly nor obliquely. The intent was to create an innocent play on words referring jokingly to “wreaking havoc” on his thread.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Nothing more.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That’s the REAL meaning of the word, my friends!<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Any meaning or emotion beyond that is an artifact of one’s personal filters/experience/culture/whatever.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Having said all that, increasing one’s sensitivity to the usage of words that carry unintended ammunition is a really good thing and can be accomplished privately and tactfully and would have been hugely appreciated in this case – by Mike and certainly by the rest of us.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And the world would have been a somewhat better-educated place.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That would have been the mark of real integrity.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Alas, it’ll go down in the books as a missed opportunity.

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p>

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Honestly, I’ve been wanting to just let this lie and go away, but my friend has been unjustly attacked and significantly hurt while many fawn over Hesh’s latest plea for sympathy for the “wound” from a bullet he deliberately and knowingly jumped in front of.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I can’t just let it pass.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Public self-flagellation/self-victimization is what should not be tolerated here.

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p>

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>If constant stroking is what you crave, use your lutherie skills and earn it.

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p>

[/QUOTE]



Thank you, Loren,
That was perfect.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=ToddStock]There are seldom many innocents on the battlefield, and having seen some of the PMs mentioned, there were none present on this one.



Probably a good idea to drop this before another man's reputation is trashed.



"Time to lay <these> rifles down"   Indeed.



[/QUOTE]

A-Men!

_________________
Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars