Official Luthiers Forum!

I am very interested in learning more about the Manzer Wedge. I saw an example of one at Rick Davis' shop during our Westcoast get-together but it was just the rim so obviously unplayable. So my questions for the day:

1. Playability / comfort - Does everyone agree that it is a more comfortable and ergonomic design?

2. Sound - Is there any noticable variance (good or bad) in the tone and sound of the guitar. Linda said on her site that there may be but it was really unnoticable - True North Guitars say it improves the sound.

3. Anyone know of any good tutorials on doing this? I've checked the archives but haven't found a whole lot. Pictures are good...

4. Any good reason not to do it? This is my first build and all... I fear that friends and family will be afraid to comment on the wedge thinking it was unintentional. I'll know for sure if I get a square for Christmas.

Thanks All!!

Christian


 

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Louis Hector Berlioz

Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

Christian

5. Oh and what is the typical "slope"? 1" difference between the bass and treble sides? Less?

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Louis Hector Berlioz

Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

Christian

manzer is one of the foremost builders around, producing guitars of the first order that bring exceptional prices. and aspiring to build similar guitars is a worthwhile goal.

for a first build i would strongly recommend that you resist the urge to do anything so esoteric. there are sufficient pitfalls in constructing a traditional shape to keep you feeling overwhelmed during a first build without adding the manifold complications inherent in doing a wedge.

you would benefit greatly from building a few of the same shape, refining your sound and constructional expertise, perhaps experimenting with different wood combinations. when you have demonstrated to your satisfaction that you can consistently get the sort of tone, fit, finish and playability you desire, then think about branching out into esoterica.

[QUOTE=Chansen]Linda said on her site that there may be but it was really unnoticable - True North Guitars say it improves the sound.
[/QUOTE]

I am sure that Linda is correct. Most of what True North says I simply roll my eyes at.

Wedges are much more comfortable. They feel like a thin guitar and sound like a thick one.

The difference in sound, if it exists at all, is less than the difference in sound between any two otherwise identical guitars. An experiment to try is to build three identical guitars, but one of them is a wedge. I predict that the difference in sound between all three guitars would be about the same.

Rick adds 1/2" to the treble side and subtracts 1/2" from the bass side for a total wedge of 1". That seems about right to me. The guitars feel like they are 1/2" inch thinner. You don't notice the guitar getting thicker towards your lap.

Remember that all of the wedge is added in the back of the guitar. The top and neck are just like a regular guitar. The hardest part is bending the binding for the back. The shape of the binding is an extremely complex curve. I've never seen a jig that helps bend this. For wood bindings, they have to be bent on a pipe and hand fitted. The process is long and difficult. I would recommend using plastic bindings. Plastic bends easily and can be forced into the binding channel with just packing tape.

However, I'd recommend not doing a wedge for your first guitar. The darn things are hard enough to get right without adding a level of complexity that you don't need.

Christian, I've built two guitars with a wedge now and I'm still a novice at this (seven total builds). I can tell you that it is harder to do because of the binding work - it is difficult to work with the compound curves. For my bindings, I bent them in a Fox Bender to start with and then worked them to the body using a bending iron. The rest of the construction is the pretty much the same. My guitars varied 1" between the bass and treble. I do think that they are a bit more comfortable and the guitars that I made sound great to me. Like Mike stated above, I wouldn't do this for a first guitar.

Linda is a great resource and will answer any questions that you may have regarding the Wedge. Just ask her, I have found her very approachable and willing to share.

Ray

I pretty much agree with what everyone else said about your first build. It's tough enough to get the geometry right without throwing in the slant. My wedge was about 1 1/8" shallower on the bass side than the treble. The trick is to subtract from one side and add to the other so you don't theoretically change to air volume. The slant of course is on the back and not the top so that the neck fitting will not be affected. Another consideration is you'll have to have a custom case made but Ameritage and Cedar Creek can both handle that.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Thanks all for the advise - I think I will heed the warnings and skip the wedge on this one. At first I figured I would go for it anyway (bollix to the neigh-sayers), but I would rather this guitar actually get finished this millennium - rather than getting stuck on some unforeseen error. Thanks for looking out for me!

Christian

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Louis Hector Berlioz

Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

Christian

Hi: I built one that was wedge shaped but didn't notice the shape until 2 weeks after it was finished!

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The Biggest Little City, Nevada
www.hammondguitars.com
I love building guitars!

We'll call that one the Hammond Wedge.  You can patent it.   

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Would it be possible to wedge the top and not the back?
This is what my nephew would like me to build for him.
           Talk about complicated.
                       James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

James, if you think that through, I think you'll find it doesn't really make sense, I hope that doesn't sound harsh.

Split a log into a wedge, you can't really say either face is off or on angle - they are both off angle to each other.

Build a guitar box with no neck, headblock or tailblock - same thing the front and back are not parallel to each other but you could call either one the reference plane.

If we say the angle of the wedge is built into the back we are really saying the angle in reference to the heel and tail block. i.e. the heel and tail block are 90 degrees to the top.

Now you know the neck has to be on the same plane as the top. So making the neck heel, neckblock, end block 90 degrees to the top seems natural in terms of aesthetics and structure for the neck.

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David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

I agree with you David,the trouble is my nephew doesn`t.He wants the neck to be laying in against his body.I think he is probably going to be dissapointed in the way it feels to play it.Not to mention its a bunch of work to get a finished guitar.I`m gonna go ahead and try to do it his way,because he`s positive that`s the way it should be built.How he knows this I`ll never know?It seems backwards to the benefits of a wedge to me.
Of course I`m not even sure I should attempt something that`s this unusual.I wonder what Linda would say about wedging the top instead of the back.
                        James
                                           

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

If the fretboard follows the plane of the top it is going to be angled in as well, which means your left hand is going to have to come around much much further. Me left hand is starting to hurt just thinking about that. If he does manage to play it that way I bet he'll have carpal tunnel type problems from twisting that far.

If you keep the fretboard at a reasonable angle off plane with the top you will have to keep the bridge on that plane as well, and trying to make a bridge that much thicker on one side is going to do some weird things to the tone.

If he wants something comfortable for his right forearm/elbow you could try a ledge of some sort on that part of the lower bout.

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David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

The fretboard is going to follow the plane of the top ,so the bridge shouldn`t be a problem.I agree with the reach of the fretboard.
                James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Very interesting points. Does anyone have any pics to share?

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Manzer Wedge

3 1/2" bass side, 4 1/2" treble side.

I think I saw one in the other thread.  Something like "Picasso" Guitar.   

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Here are some shots at my attempts of the Manzner Wedge:

Here the rims are made, the Koa one is a righty and the Blackwood (African) is a lefty.



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They both have about a 1" taper very simular to Blanchard's dimensions (Hi Mark!) I did ask Linda for her permission to use the wedge concept and the option will be called the "Manzer Wedge." on my guitars.(see her website)