Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello all --

Ken here. I'm new to the site and new to the fine art of lutherie. I've recently completed my first build, and I'm starting in on my second and third, both OM designs based on the techniques of Jonathan Kinkade. I thought it would be fun (and more efficient) to work on two simultaneously, using different materials, varying brace shapes, wall thicknesses, etc.

I've been wondering for some time, and suspect there's no definite answer -- at what point does one consider oneself a luthier, versus an instrument builder? I certainly won't be comfortable with the term fo a very long time -- perhaps twenty more builds down the road, when I've developed a strong skill set, and can provide more answers than questions to other aspiring luthiers.

Perhaps there's an apprenticeship in a luthier's shop, certification from a school of lutherie, ownership of a profitable business, or the ability to blindly identify tonewoods by tap and feel. Maybe it's the first strum of fresh strings on build #1, but I doubt it.

I'd love to hear other opinions on this most nebulous and elusive of titles. My son has a wonderful book called Wizardology, written from the perspective of Merlin, describing the nearly unattainable goal of becoming a wizard. I suspect becoming a luthier is an equally mystical and epic quest. Pack on my back, I've taken the first small step. I love a great adventure...

Ken Jones

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Mountain Song Guitars www.mountainsongguitars.com

Hi Ken, Welcome to OLF!  You are a luthier.  IMO, you became one when you started your first.  If you can spell it, and know what it means, you are one.  This is a great hang out.  Lots of wonderful people willing to share experiences, good and bad, and much in the way of instruction for those of us who are struggling, to also be, what was that word?

Post some pictures of your first.  We'd all love to see it, and in case you haven't noticed, comment on it.  Use the tree with the up arrow on it to upload pictures.  Reduce the size to something in the 640X480 range, don't know if that ratio is right, but you get the idea.  Too big blows everything out of proportion.  Also, hit the enter key between posts, and it will stack them up instead of running them across the page.

You are going to love it around here!  Great place to learn and share.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Welcome to the forum, Ken. I assume there is no definitive answer to your question. Maybe when you feel comfortable with the title "luthier". When you take pride in showing your product to someone who knows guitars. When you no longer say "I love it, except for this and this and this."

It's very subjective. Anyway, I'm working on #5. I've built 4 dreads and the current is my first OM. I, too, am going by Kinkead and am about 2/3 complete.

We love pictures, how about pics of that first build?

BTW, where in the USA are you?

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

As soon as you learn the secret handshake....

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53% of all statistics are made up on the spot
http://driftwoodguitars.blogspot.com/

I suspect that technically "luthier" refers to someone who makes/repairs/restores stringed instruments, so you would probably need to be familiar with all/most of guitar, lute, violin family, chello. double-bass, mandolin, harpsichord, clavicord, piano etc, etc, etc.

In Europe there was also the guild system but as with other guilds it wasn't just skill that would get you to be a luthier.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Look at the question this way. This is a trade skill Trade skills typically break down the job title in to experience categories. apprentice/trainee, journeyman and master. But none the the less they all have the title related to their skill. an apprentice plumber is still a plumber.

Being a Luthier brings in itself no great accolade to the individual. It is the only the level of mastery of his craft that will bring acclaim.

So if you have built a guitar that plays you are a luthier. If it is your first or first tenth you are a luthier trainee. If your 500th and you have become very proficient in yous skills then maybe someone will consider you a master Luthier.

I consider myself second grade journeyman luthier. I don't think my work is second grade I just have not paid enough dues to consider myself a first grade journeyman luthier. Still way too much to learn to get there.

So in conclusion if you intend to continue to build guitars you are a luthier at a current skill level.

The honor derived from being called or calling yourself a luthier is derived from the love of the craft. The name luthier implies no magical powers or bestowed honors. Merely a member of skilled craft.

Hi Ken and welcome to the OLF!

The title "Luthier" can be a bit of a hot topic. I prefer to call myself a Guitar Builder, and if someone refers to me as a Luthier, that's would be there call.

Obviously the literal meaning of the word is

a maker of stringed instruments, as violins.

n.   One that makes or repairs stringed instruments, such as violins.

So any qualification to a skill level is not mentioned in the definition. But in the real world, I think we may do the elders of this craft a disservice is we toss around that term too loosely.

Whats "too loosely"? I guess that is for each of us to decide.

Just my opinion.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Welcome, Ken!

I have no opinion on the word "luthier", it is obviously not a word that is used in my language. I don’t get what the bid deal is though; does the fact the word sounds French mean that anyone calling themselves this imply that they are superior in any way to a “instrument maker”? If so, why? I am puzzled because every now and then I see this subject discussed on instrument maker’s forums, right now there is a thread on Mandolin Cafe, I have seen it on MIMF and we have had them here in the past as well. Sometimes the debate is really heated too; what is it all about?

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Hey Ken,

Welcome to the OLF. For me the term Luthier would be applicable to anyone who has built enough stringed instruments of what ever kind to take their end product from a finely crafted woodworking project to the status of a functional work of art ( or at least has the skills to cover up the errors so it would appear so)

Cheers

Kim

Wait a minute, there's a handshake? Nobody ever told me that.

Oh, welcome Ken!

[QUOTE=ToddStock]To paraphrase Rick Davis, you are a guitar builder if you charge under a $1000 per instrument, and a luthier if you can get more than that. [/QUOTE]

Hey I was gonna use that quote!

I'm just a mere guitar-maker wannabe.

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Louis Hector Berlioz

Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

Christian

I dunno...in my own mind it could mean someone who has "come of age" in their skills in building instruments...hard to define because there is no formal qualification to pass....

I read a thread very much like this in the mandolin cafe forum...I'll see if I can find the Cumpiano link regarding Luthiery that someone provided, because it was good reading...

At the college I work at, the craft skills are recognised by a City and Guilds award, which can be highly esteemed in various circles.

I have taught classes of children before, but because I have a teacher's qualification, it does not mean I am a teacher...(Well, I NOT currently, nor in the forseeable future......)

Tricky one.

I'm a hobby builder, but I have "Martin Edwards Luthier" as my blog title as "Martin Edwards" was used already and "Martin Edwards Hobby Guitar Builder" was too long

For me graduation happened when a guitarist picks up one of my builds and refuse to accept that I built it.

That's happened a few times and it feels GREAT!!!!!!

mind you, it still feels great to put strings on and actually get a noise out!!

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My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

I change the washer on my faucet, i am not a plumber. I charge for changing a washer on someone's faucet, i'd better be a plumber.

It doesn't matter how much you get for your guitar, if you are professional enough for others to have you do the work for them (Even if for free), you iz one.

Whether you are a good one or not is a different issue...

Just MHO.

Rob

STM that whether you are good at it or bad at it, sell or work for free, or do it for a hobby, doesn't really matter.  The word has the meaning that you either build stringed instruments or repair them, so if you do it, you are it, whether you like it or not.  The proof is in the pudding, when you build a guitar and it actually plays, it is still a guitar.  If you have to hit it with a stick for it to make a sound, then it is a drum, and you are not a luthier.  

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Changing a washer or even doing some major plumbing for your home is not the same as working in the trade. Yes I over generalized my comments. but I assumed that working in the trade was implied.

What we do is luthierie. If you apply your skills to the "trade of craft" you are a luthier. How skilled of a luthier is dependent on your skills.

For those that hold the title in esteem such as a college degree or as a point of achievement with specific required proficiency and documentation, I understand the thought and do not totally disagree. However we then get to the point were we start saying such things as "He is not really a luthier. He knows nothing about Violas." That is kind of silly and petty in my books.

I just don't hold the title of luthier is such high esteem as to not include myself or other builders as luthiers. To me a hobby builder is someone that builds with no intent to achieving proficiency in the craft. (no ill intent towards those that prefer to call themselves hobbyists) A luthier is someone that knowingly and purposfuly builds with the intent to become proficient in the craft.

In truth it all boils down to whether you chose to wear the the title or not and that is the individuals concept. I do believe that to self-proclaim yourself a master luthier grossly pompous, and to me that is a title that can never be self-imposed. But your work will tell the story, so I don't worry with it too much.

This is a big debate, and you don't want to here my opinion!
Lance

Humm? WoW!

Come on Lance, you can't leave us hanging, I'd love to hear this!

I'm a hobbyist, so I don't claim to be a luthier. I had read somewhere that if you have built 5 different wooden stringed instruments, you can claim the title of Luthier. I don't believe this because I have built 2 guitars, a ukulele, a bouzouki, and a half of a mandolin, and I don't feel like a luthier. However, I am getting better. Oh yea, and I do have the word luthier in my business name, does that count?
Tracy

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Tracy
http://www.luthiersuppliers.com

Careful, Tracy, you may be selling to individuals who are not authorized to buy Luthier Supplies.  Some of us don't fall under the official interpretation of the word.
Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/luthier

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=McCollum] This is a big debate, and you don't want to here my opinion!
Lance[/QUOTE]
Sure we do--but no naughty words!!!

Lance McCollum, please do not keep us in suspense!

Well, I'd love to hear Mario's take on this one. Al's here, so he probably has some insight. Anyhow, I think you have to fight a grizzly bear somewhere along the way.

Actually, I remember Al telling me about the luthier test from somewhere in Europe. Hopefully he can chime in here, but it involved being able to make a couple functional instruments in some time period without plans.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I pay dues to the Guild of American Luthiers, and I have a certificate.  Does that count?  

OH, and I participate in the Official Luthier's Forum - How's that for qualifications?

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

As far as I know, there's only one fella around here that builds lutes.

Is someone who builds guitars from kits, a luthier? Or an assembler? Draw the line where ever you like.

I think to be a luthier you'd have to be proficient at all aspects of making stringed instruments, from material selection, instrument design, right through to applying finish and final setup. Then there's the repair and restoration thing as well.

But that's just my opinion. I'm only on #3 & #4, though I started this guitar building thing over 5 years ago. There are after all, more important things in life. I wouldn't even call myself a guitarmaker. Just some clown with a workshop and enough luck to still have all ten digits.