Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=skulpter]at what point does one consider oneself a luthier..? [/QUOTE]



...only when you discover that you are a direct decendant of Martin Luthier.



I think the ability to sell an instrument, or make a living in "the
trade" (as someone described it) plays no part in it; you can just call
yourself a "professional" in that case.  There are plenty of
people in the trades who don't give a lick about the quality of their
work.



To me, it means that you approach stringed instrument construction as a
craft, having a desire and plan to improve your craft, stretch your
abilities, gain experience and raise your personal bar.

I think we could go on and on about this subject.

Here's my opinion and thats all it is.
Just because you fix someone's faucet that doesn't make you a plumber, if you repair a car are you a mechanic? replace a light bulb? You get the point...
IMHO, a luthier is someone who has dedicated his/her life to the craft and lutherie is their only or biggest source of income.
Knowing how to make something doesn't make you a professional in that field.

Lance McCollum, I would definitely like to hear what you have to say.

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

All good points

- but mostly I like to call myself a hobbiest luthier only with people
who I'm pretty sure don't know what a luthier is.  That way I
don't have to worry about them looking at and judging my lack of
craftsmanship, and hoping they are blind and deaf enough to not want to
see the proof.



Someone once told me that the majic threshold is seven
instruments.  I'm almost there, but not even ready for this group
to take a look.

to be or not to be? In dealing with the construction trades I can tell you more often the pros that (blow their own horn) are the ones to be careful of.The ones to use are the pros that let their work speak for them.
So in my humble opion if you think you are a luthier keep it to your self

On the one hand, it's hard to disagree with the idea that anybody who builds stringed instruments is, in some part, a luthier. On the other hand....

When Romanillos was researching his book on Spanish guitar makers, he came across a set of guild regulations. In order to be ranked as a 'master luthier', you had to go into a workshop with wood and tools, but no drawings, and, in a set period, build a fancy guitar, a violin, and a harp, all of which had to be up to the standards of the other masters. Actually, you had to build a string quartet, but they gave you some time to finish the other three...

The point is not so much which instruments you built, I think, but that you knew enough to design and build three very different types of intruments. Obviously a big part of that would be the training; knowing all the rules for laying out fret scales or harp string lengths, or the proportions of a violin. Some of those rules have been forgotten, and some are only now being rediscovered(we fervently hope and believe!). Another huge issue was tool chops; being able to do the work efficiently; another thing you learned from your master. There are also time management aspects, and a lot of other stuff too.

By that standard, I guess I'm a 'Journeyman' luthier with some hope of becoming a Master sometime. We don't have that training system, and it slows us down in some respects. On the other hand, we aren't locked in so tightly either. As Jim D'Aquisto said: "If you do something WRONG enough for LONG enough, it becomes right." If you look at some of the stuff those old boys made, it can be pretty crude: we've got high standards of workmanship on the whole, which also makes it tough to be considered a 'master'. Imagine having to inlay as well as Laskin, carve as well as Somogyi, have the design sense of Carlson or Fleishman, work as quickly as Olson, and so on. Yipes!

So, yeah, I call myself a 'luthier': I think if I just made guitars, I'd call myself a 'guitar maker'.

Howdy Y'all!

I'm a newbie to the forum and to the craft.  Yes, I have at least five or six of the yellow certificates from GAL and I have lots of tools and wood....  I have joined the 'Luthier's Forum"  But, I have not made an instrument. YET!  I have made a few repairs and have read lots of books.

I am not a Luthier.  Even though I have the GAL cap.......

I have a day job as an engineer (NASA/JSC contractor).  I have to be careful how I say engineer because in my state if you are not a "registered engineer" you can't legally use the "E" word in your business literature.

I watched my father build with his hands several projects that have endured. This has given me a love and feel for craftsmanship.  My mother had a love for music which she passed to me.  So, I am combining both into a hobby, for now.

I'm sorry for the long winded post.  I will strive for compactness next time.  I just wanted to get my passion out here.  I want to see if I have what it takes to build a functioning and aesthetically pleasing instrument.  I love to learn.  Thank you for the inspiration!

PS - I am not form Afganistan.......

Youre a luthier when:

1. Your weekly wood bill exceeds your weekly grocery bill.
2. Theres a race down to the mailbox the day your Visa bill arrives so you can get it paid and hidden before your wife gets a chance to see it.
3. You get excited over the Tasmanian Tiger Myrtle youve just received from Tim Spittle but your wife and friend's don't share your excitement.
4. Your workshop is fully climate controlled while you huddle over a two bar heater to keep warm inside your house.

I was told it was when I had built 100 - from scratch. That's also when I was supposed to be able to use my first set of Brazilian. I'm not quite that strict, but I'm thinking at least 50. And you better be able to repair every thing that you built on that guitar -- including the finish!

Lance

To me if you build guitars you're a 'Guitar builder' calling yourself a luthier is like a chimney sweep calling himself a 'Carbon deposit removal operative', meaningless and slightly arrogant. There is nothing wrong with calling yourself a Guitar builder.

At the very least if you want to call yourself a 'luthier' you should have built a lute .

No, Dave and the others are right in my book to be a luthier you have to have a very much broader knowledge of a wider range of stringed instrument building and repair than just guitars.

Why devalue the skill of being a 'guitar builder' by pretending to be something else. Be proud to be a Guitar builder.

Me, I'm a 'Guitar builder and Lute maker'. Still not a luthier.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

A person is a luthier when they are comfortable to call themselves one. If you are engaged in the act of lutherie, you are in fact a luthier are you not?

I have to say I find all the preciousness that surrounds some crafts a bit wanky. Artists can be like that. Perhaps thats just the Oz in me.

But setting some kind of initiation hurdle is a touch elitist and creates an insiders and outsiders attitude that seems at odds with how I understand lutherie today. I think this also goes against the spirit of the sharing and encouragement that makes the OLF and other such sites so cool. We are all here to learn and share, we are just at different stages of the same journey.
Dom

"Artists can be like that"...too true!!!

The less preoccupied you are with titles, the more secure you are in your skill development and craft.

So why is "luthier" a more arrogant and so on term than "guitar maker" or "instrument maker" if you make several different types of instruments? It seems that for people who are not familiar with the craft, the term luthier is not widely known in the English speaking world ("what, is your name Luther?"), so how did it come to be understood this way? I'm asking because English is not my first language and to me they are just words, I guess I don't grasp their implications.

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

[QUOTE=Colin S] At the very least if you want to call yourself a 'luthier' you should have built a lute .


[/QUOTE]

Colin,

Speaking of which - do you think you will be able to make a basic set of plans for me this year? I still have "make a lute" on my 2007 wish list and have already got myself a huge swear-box for when I try cutting out a carved rosette

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Doyr fe;
doyr frendar;
doyr sjolv det same.
Men ordet om deg
aldri doyr
vinn du eit gjetord gj?vt.

Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal:
But the good name
never dies
Of one who has done well.



Shawn probably knows this; it is from ”Havamal” which is a collection of old Norse proverbs that was written down in the 1200’s. Unfortunately the translation fails to capture the unique sense of rhythm and style of the language, it sounds so much better in Old Norse! Most likely the verses go back to Viking times and they reflect the ideals of the day, but some of them transcend the ages and places and sound appropriate even now.

Worry less about what to call yourself and more about what they will say about you when you are gone.

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

It just seems to me that when you apply a title to your life it's because that's what you ARE, not just something you do.

I don't think i'll ever be a luthier - i plan on building a couple of guitars - just enough to make one perfect one for myself, but i'll never build a luth.

Rob

Rob , That's a good answer, when you make your only income doing it!
Lance

Titles that depict an activity often have this ambiguity. Sometimes the title means "One who engages in that activity". Other times it means "One who is certified in a trade or skill". Take the term "hiker". If you like to go for long walks in the woods, most people would consider you a hiker. Others, mostly experienced wilderness hikers, think of hiking as a serious activity that requires training and skill and that all those other hikers are mostly just out for a stroll.

If you call yourself Doctor than you better have the degrees associated with it. Otherwise, you are misrepresenting yourself. The same with plumber, electrician, architect, and so on.

However, take the word "astronomer". I usually think of an astronomer as someone with an advanced degree who works in the field of astronomy. However, as an amateur astronomer, I know that the title applies to anyone who regularly looks at the night with telescopes. I don't think anyone really has a problem with this.

Consider the term musician. I play musical instruments and sing and I will sometimes do a paying gig now and then. I'm I a musician? I'm not a member of the Union and I don't try to support myself playing music. But, when I show up at gig carrying a guitar, fiddle, and banjo and someone says "Oh, the musicians have arrived", I don't correct them.

So, I tell people that I'm an amateur luthier and I don't feel guilty about it.

[QUOTE=Arnt] Doyr fe;
doyr frendar;
doyr sjolv det same.
Men ordet om deg
aldri doyr
vinn du eit gjetord gj?vt.

[/QUOTE]
I love how Norwegian looks wrote down!!

it's gr?t!!

Well, this week I repaired the bridge on a double neck that I built last year.

I've built electric bass & guitar, acoustic guitar, acoustic bass, flat-top mando, carved top mando, doublenecked guitar and bouzouki.

if I give up the teaching job I could starve to death thinking I was a luthier for real!!!

_________________
My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

EDIT

Oh yes and a couple of flutes, do they count?

_________________
My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

[QUOTE=Arnt] Doyr fe;
doyr frendar;
doyr sjolv det same.
Men ordet om deg
aldri doyr
vinn du eit gjetord gj?vt.

Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal:
But the good name
never dies
Of one who has done well.

[/QUOTE]

I heard a good one too
"20 Svedes, in zhe veeds
Chased avay by vone Norveigan"
A proud Norweigan told me that one,.. like the old
"Frig Fodder Flax and Fire"
good oral tradition there, in Northern Europe!

Anyhow in this whole luthier title debate, I think that practically everyone who builds has or had some old timer luthier, or icon whom they idolize, someone that has forgotten more than we feel well ever know... and to whom we feel like that standard of knowledge should apply "to anyone who would want to call themselves a luthier", or metalsmith or carver or whatever..
In reality its nice to have a high level of craftsmanship to aspire to -
its far better than some of the guitars I have seen cranked out by so called, and self proclaimed "local luthier" here in my area... Id never seen a guitars shoddy cracks, filled with auto silicone before, which Im assuming accounts for the rubbed oil finish..
Cheers
Charliewood

[QUOTE=McCollum] Rob , That's a good answer, when you make your only income doing it!
Lance[/QUOTE]

I build and repair guitars professionally and I am a full time mechanical engineer. Both invocations are done professionally. Both invocations put food in my families mouth.

By your definition I can not consider my self a luthier???

I take my craft quite seriously. I spend every moment in my shop with the up most attention to proficiency of the craft. I don't mean this to be a confrontational statement as i do respect you right to your opinion, but that thought is a bit out of wak in my opinion.

My grandfather was a Master carpenter and a Master electrician. He worked both jobs for over 40 years. Mostly simotaneously. He was an electrical foreman on the Hoover Dam project, Chief Lineman for Texas Electric Service Co. from it's infancy and built cabinets and furnishings 100s of homes and families in his working life. He was both a carpenter and an electrician. And I assure you; not one less than the other.

Wow! Lots of terrific responses. Plenty of food for thought, and now I'm more confused than ever! Just kidding. As I suspected, there are many opinions on the subject, and as I see it, pretty much open to interpretation, at least in this neck of the woods.

At my old job back in Tucson, AZ, I was the Shop Supervisor for the University of Arizona's College of Architecture, and oversaw everything that happened in the wood and metal shops. It was a ton of responsibility, and I was good at it. However, the Director insisted on referring to me as "Shop Master", which made me cringe every time I heard it, because I had so far to go to consider myself a "master woodworker of metalworker". I felt that it slighted those that have devoted their lives to their craft and truly attained that level of mastery. I knew more than any of the students or faculty, but in the grand scheme of Krenovs and Maloofs, Yellins and Paleys, I was but a babe in the woods.

I think I'll stick with guitar builder for a while, at least until I've built a few other types of instruments, and then I might eventually become comfortable with the term "amateur luthier". If I'm ever making my living designing, building, and repairing stringed instruments, my sign will probably read, "Ken Jones, Luthier".

_________________
Mountain Song Guitars www.mountainsongguitars.com

If you have considered planting your own trees to grow Brazillian rosewood ...

If you find yourself counting growth rings per inch on furniture...

If you have wondered if jello might work as well as hide glue...

If you have considered cutting trees down in your yard just to see if it would make good bindings...

If you inspect cedar fences and shake roofs looking for top wood....

If you go to the Guitar Center with a ruler and an inspection mirror...

If your refrigerator is full of glue bottles...

If $200 sounds sounds like a good deal for 50 pound a sack of hide glue granules...


You might be a luthier

Hey Ken,
   Welcome to the OLF. I'm sure you'll find, as most of us have, that this is
the finest community of players and builders on the web. The members
here will surprise you with their willingness to openly share anything
they've lerned or discovered concerning lutherie and all of the materials
and tools connected to it.

   I've always felt that anyone who builds a stringed instrument is, in fact,
a luthier, but also feel that they would probably be best served by
allowing others to hang the tag on them rather than pinning it on
themselves. As the number of instruments completed by any candidate
for the illustrious and revealing title increases, they may feel more
comfortable using it to describe what they do, but most builders actually
shy away from it for some time as they develop their abilities and
knowledge of the craft.

   The vintage of the definition of the word "luthier" is reflected by the
"such as violins" designation. Violins (or ochestral stringed instruments)
were the most common stringed instruments at the time so the making of
violins and such made up the workload of most makers. Alot of the same
technology and philosophy is....or at least should be....applied to guitar
making and the goals of the maker for their product are the same. Great
tone, comfortable playability, wonderful appearance and a marketplace in
which to sell them are all common goals to any builder who has
determined to learn the craft and take it beyond the status of being a
hobby for them.

    There is a small repair shop here in my area that is owned a operated
by a friend of mine. He's built only one guitar, but has repaired thousands
of violins, cellos and other similar instruments. That one guitar that he
built is a disaster in every respect as it has less than desirable tone, is
practically unplayable, and looks pretty rough, but his repairs on violins
are expert in quality and his set ups on those type of instruments are
flawless. He's a luthier of the highest order in my opinion and has more
right to carry a "master luthier" tag than anyone I know of. He's built a
single guitar and I've built nearly 500 alone in my shop, but I'd be much
more comfortable looking to him as the luthier if we were together and
someone asked, "Is there a luthier in the house?".

    I've watched, though, as a few guys....who have built far less guitars
than myself and many other builders.....have deemed themselves to be
"master luthiers" on the forums and at the various shows. They huddle
together in their rather childish little circles to "critique" and "review" the
work of others, but it's never in an effort to help those being critiqued,
but more to pump their own image and to validate themselves and it's
laughable at best. I've played guitars from some and quickly discerned
that their "master?" tag was self awarded....or inflicted. Tone, playability
and appearance that fell far short of that of many more humble builders
who have chosen to remain in the lower masses of "mere luthiers".

    There are very few who I would revere as master luthiers and they are
not those who most people would consider the more likely candidates.
They're not the guys who are getting the most press or are pressed by the
largest crowds at the popular show venues. They're not the guys who
have the longest and most impressive artist list for endorsement. They're
not the guys who tout themselves as anything more than builders striving
to build their next guitar to be a little better than their last. They're
certainly not the guys who boast their own abilities or guitars as being
the absolute end all or throw out rediculous formulas, numbers and
absolutes in an effort to validate their findings and methods or to impress
a less than knowing public.

    They are the guys who have continually grown in the craft and have
developed their sensitivity to the subtle variations presented by the
medium in which we all work to a point from which they can not only
achieve the goals of the luthier, but convey and almost impart them to
others as they grow the craft itself.

   These are the "master luthiers", in my opinion, if there is such a thing.
The funny thing is that you'll never hear or see a single one of them call
themselves a "master luthier". When someone does, I usually chuckle and
dismiss it as simply being a marketing effort to boost the perception of
their work by others. Just because an ad says that a particular brand is
the best, doesn't mean that it's the best and the same is true of
endorsement whether offered by an artist...or the builder himself.

   The most humbling thing about those builders who truly are masters at
the craft is that they're happy to just carry the tag "luthier" and are proud
to be counted as part of the wonderful community that it surrounds it.
They're willing to share the same billing as you and me as we lern and
grow in our abilites.

   I was honored once to attend a concert at a school in NYC that was
performed by students bwteen 4th and 8th grade. Evidently, a distant
relative of the great violinist, Isaac Stern, was performing and he just
happened to be in the city at the time. To encourage his relative's child,
Stern, made a surprise visit to the school to attend the concert. most
people had no clue of who he was, but a few of us understood the
magnitude of what we were seeing. After the concert, Stern made his way
to the stage to touch and congratulate each one of the musicians when
one asked if he would play his violin for him.

    Stern took the child's violin and gently coaxed about thirty seconds of
musical heaven from it. He suddenly stopped and whispered something
to his assistant or protege who was with him who quickly produced a case
that was obviously protecting a valuable cargo. Stern opened the case and
pulled out his favorite performing instrument and called all of the student
close to him and began playing a portion of the concert they had just
presented. He prompted them to join in and as each one of them did, his
smile grew and his obvious joy and excitement increased.

   I'd seen Isaac Stern perform on several occasions and had heard
countless recorded performances, but I'd never heard him play with so
much conviction or passion as he did that night in the auditorium of a
school surrounded by student players. As he played, he made eye contact
with the students and smiled as they responded to him and his playing.
This is the heart of a true "master" of any craft...that they are most
passionate and affected when they are being an inspiration to others in
the craft.

   A master never belittles or discourages another from attaining that
same standard of excellence that they have in an effort to protect their
precious position as "master", but educates and encourages others to
achieve the same level of excellence and knowledge with a genuine desire
and hope that some will pass him by and take the craft that they love so
much to higher places than they have.

   Their love isn't for their own recognition or accolades, but for the craft
itself. So, next time you read a post at a forum or listen to the ramblings
of one of the resident and self endowed "master" luthiers, consider their
motivation and apply their offering accordingly.


Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars