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Hesh:

I cannot speak to fish glue at all, but I either use, or have seen West Systems epoxy used for a number of applications: pore filling, fretboards, bridge plates, crack repair, etc. It's versatile, and numbers of reputable people use it.

It comes, of course, in two parts: Part 1, is the resin base. It's number 105.

Part 2 is the hardener. 205 is the fast hardener. 206 is the slow hardener.   For what we do, the fast hardener isn't "too" fast. There's plenty of working time. That said, I recently used 206 for my pore fill, and it worked fantastic, dried overnight (it was warm, however) and sanded like a dream. With the Festool, you'll have almost no dust from the pore fill - IF you ever try the West Systems that way.

If, like I was, you're sort of out of the loop on epoxy, let me clear up something. The Parts, 1 and 2, are sold in different quantities. It's not a 50/50 mix of material. So if you buy it, make sure you match the size of the resin, to the appropriate size of the hardener. If you match correctly, the "pumps" that measure out the materials will require only ONE squirt each for the correct amount of resin/hardener mixture. If you purchase the wrong sizes, you'll be making a trip back to the store for the correct matching size. Don't ask me how I know this.

West Systems is sold at the vast majority of West Marine stores. I don't know about Michigan, but West Marine stores are all over down here...there is 4 within an hour of me. Oh, and one other thing: the stuff isn't cheap, but then, neither is one of those little 2-plunger tubes packs that you buy at the home improvement store.

Hope that helps you...goodness knows I'm not able to offer you much guidance, but that's what I know.

Bill

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Stadium Hardware for the West System, and my shop for the fish glue.
105 resin and 205 hardener is all you should need, and for some
applications some of thier microfiber or colloidal silica fillers.

West System is based in Bay City, so a lot of places in Michigan will stock
it. Stadium Hardware carries pretty much the full West System line, from
resins and hardeners to fiber reinforcements, fillers, and applicators. The
hardener can tend to amber slowly after it is first opened and exposed to
oxygen, so if you don't use very much it can be best to buy the sealed
individual use packets (which Stadium carries).

I have to put in an order with Norland soon, and am more than happy to
split it up. Because of the fish glue shelf life I like to order once a year
direct from the manufacturer, and have never trusted resellers.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Hesh,
Rockler sells the West System. you can get it online.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Hesh,

Fish glue is available from Lee Valley:

Fish Glue - Lee Valley

I just used some today to glue top braces.


Peter

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Peter

Kremer pigments in germany sells really super choice fish glue. Reccomended place for dyes and the like too...(that is, if you can work out wich one you want! -far to many options!) 

Hesh-
There's not much that I can add to the excellent advice you've gotten here.
Once you spread it into a thin layer, even 'fast' epoxy will have way more working time than you need.
You definitely need to get a thickener for gluing applications- microfibers are easier to sand and easier on tools than silica (silica as in glass/quartz/sand). Colloidal silica is great for making up putties, setting hardware and such.
Latex or nitrile gloves (keep it off your skin, as you can get an allergic reaction if you are persistently sloppy) plastic cups for mixing, and alcohol for cleaning up drips and squeezeout should be added to your list.
As David mentioned, the hardener does darken over time, but since the hardener is only 1/5 (1/6?- I forget- the pumps take care of the details!) of the final mixture, I've never found it to be much of a problem.
Also, unlike the common practice of applying glue to only one surface when using woodworking glues, epoxy definitely needs to be applied to both surfaces, and allowed to 'soak in' for a bit before clamping. Also, extreme clamping force is not a good idea.
It can be messy when you are learning to use it, and it is 'slippery', so you want to use locating pins or similar.
Great stuff, though.

Cheers

John

The points John makes are very important with epoxies. When you go to
the hardware store they usually have a rack of free brochures and flyers
from Gougeon Brothers (West System manufacturers). They will have tips
for best results in various applications like filleting, hardware bonding,
composite layups and such. There is a section on what they refer to as a
two-step bonding process which is exactly what John described above,
and that is what should generally be used on fingerboard joints.

Depending on the application however I will occasionally let the epoxy
thicken slightly by waiting 10-15 minutes after "wetting" both surfaces,
as opposed to adding a filler. Most of the time I do use a filler though.
Either way it does need to be thickened, and extreme overclamping can
cause problems. The reason is that starved glue joints are a much more
realistic threat with epoxies when improperly applied than with most
other glues.

And like John also said, The aging of the hardener is such a slow process
that I still buy it in the cans and have little problem with color. When I am
doing a repair joint that may be very visible however I will use the small
fresh single use packets, but that's not often. I also haven't used the
pumps since I was working on boats many years ago, because now in
repair I use such small quantities at a time. I simply keep a few graduated
syringes that I refill from the cans to mix small batches, and when mixing
larger amounts I use a triple beam balance scale.

I'll check my supplies tomorrow to see how soon I'll be putting that fish
glue order in, but I was planning on within the next week or two.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

One thing about the West glues. The 206 hardener dries much clearer than the 205. So if you are doing a pore fill that is probably worth considering.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I used fish glue for everything on my current 2 guitars, including the fretboard. Yes, there is water in the fish glue, but it behaves differently than LMI white or Titebond in my experience. It seems to act more like epoxy in terms of water reaction.
I also get mine from Lee Valley.

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

[QUOTE=SteveS] I used fish glue for everything on my current 2 guitars, including the fretboard. Yes, there is water in the fish glue, but it behaves differently than LMI white or Titebond in my experience. It seems to act more like epoxy in terms of water reaction.
I also get mine from Lee Valley. [/QUOTE]

Steve...But epoxy has NO water that can affect the warping of wood. I used HHG on my 1st and had a permanent back bow in the neck...never again will I use a water-based adhesive to adhere FB to neck. I can't imagine how FG would be any different than HHG in releasing its water.

Since that time I've used 60 minute or 90 minute epoxy found in the local hardware store on 8 guitars...another Mario recommendation. If you go that route, make sure you use it while it's fresh and not after it's over a year old. The age issue is the reason I don't use the West Systems stuff...I'd never use it all up within a year, or even 2 years, and would end up wasting most of that expensive stuff.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=ToddStock]
I have not seen any back-bow issues with my necks, but I glue up on a dead flat surface with a FB caul - I let the joint sit for 36 hours clamped - so far, no movement. [/QUOTE]

Todd...what glue are you using on your FB/neck joint?

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] Steve...But epoxy has NO water that can affect the warping of wood. I used HHG on my 1st and had a permanent back bow in the neck...never again will I use a water-based adhesive to adhere FB to neck. I can't imagine how FG would be any different than HHG in releasing its water.
[/QUOTE] I've built 10 necks and have used Titebond, LMI white, epoxy and Fish Glue. I've never had a problem.
I wonder what the difference is. Perhaps it is that I make 5 piece necks.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Another thing that's helpful for using epoxy is a good scale.  Proper mix ratio is important.  The mixing pumps that go in the cans are less than ideal.  If they sit on the shelf awile, they get air in them and you have to waste a few pumps to prime them (or get an inaccurate mix).  You also waste a lot by having to use a minimum amount of one full pump.  The 205 and 206 hardeners are 1/5 by weight as well as volume.  Some of the other ones are a different ratio by weight and volume.

West system has great tech support too.  Good web site and when I called up 20 some years ago to ask a question, they put me right through to one of the Gougeon brothers.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

[QUOTE=ToddStock] FWIW. eight year old West still cures as hard and as fast as new stuff, although you'll need to keep the hardener can tightly sealed. The hardener will darken a bit over time.[/QUOTE]

I'll echo this. My stuff isn't that old, but the stuff I used with a builder I know is. Works like a dream.

Bill

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

John A. mentioned above about spreading epoxy thin to extend its working time, and I thought it might be a good idea to make new epoxy users aware of that, as it's counter-inuitive. Epoxy cures by creating its own heat when the two parts are mixed, so spreading it thin actually helps to keep it cooler--and slower curing--than if it's left pooled in a mixing cup. It's also why epoxy cures best if the ambient temperature is above 70F.

BTW, just a reminder to wear a mask if you use silica or fiber additives, at least until it's mixed thoroughly into the epoxy.   That stuff lodges in your lungs and stays there.