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Is this a rather serious runout or what.

Pictured, the top of my first guitar. It didn't have much volume, and it wasn't getting any better after i thinned it on and on. I removed the back and put stronger braces and that didn't help either. In the end I decided to remove the top, and split it to check the thickness. (except bridge footprint and edges, mostly 2mm and under)

The picture isnt that good but I think it can be easily seen that the fibers are only 1 inch long.

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Build log

that is rather extreme runout and unless it was expressly sold as low grade wood i would be letting the vendoe feel my displeasure.

that being said i don't think that would on its own account for your volume problems.

Thanks Michael...at least I have learned a bit more now.

It is Eng., sold as "fine grade" =AAA, not a 10$ board and I also paid for joining. Oh well, I hope I'll have better luck next time.

For the volume, I should add that it was a treble problem. It had pleasant tone and nice bass when plucking softly, but no treble headroom if I would want to play a forte passage.

Since I bought an expensive wood, I simply assumed it is very stiff, so I thinned a lot.  From what i have read, stiffness is good for trebles, runout is bad for stiffness, and in the end my top felt quite soft between the braces indeed.

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Build log

Who sold that as AAA grade?

I would rather not put it out openly - everyone could do a mistake, and duds can slip easily especially with non-homogeneous materials such as wood.  It is also my fault that I didn't know better - and since I have used it I can't complain anymore. 

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Build log

I have had a major supplier sell me a piece of spruce that had a bad case of runout also. I didnt think too much of it until it was too late. It didnt show any real detrimental signs until I did something out of the normal and the top cracked along the skewed grain lines of the wood.

I, too, will know better from now on. I applaud your choice not to reveal the name of the company that you got it from. I don't want to reveal the name of the company I got mine from either as I feel it would serve no good purpose. I have not contacted the company to get them to resolve this problem, but I will eventually. I am confident that they will replace the wood.

It is not my strict policy to check each top wood set I get for runout. I will not build with wood containing runout anymore.

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Reguards,

Ken H

The last line should read:

It is now my strict policy to check each top wood set I get.

I need an edit button...

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Reguards,

Ken H

Ken, I think I know that one - cracked because uncauled fret taping. An unfortunate and rare accident, but guitars are often dropped on the floor or stepped on. But who knows, a ranout split might be easier to repair than a perpendicular fiber fracture !

From what I have learned so far, SS builders do not seem to mind runout nearly as much as classical builders. Romanillos for example (Shawn's posts), plus the couple others I have talked over email, will not use anything but zero runout.  Is this simply a sort of tradition, or a way to make sure the wood sustains a heavy shock better without splitting, or does it really have a tonal importance?

It would be very interesting to learn what is the difference in
stiffness between a top split perfectly on the quarter, with full
length fibers, and a top cut slightly skewed.

I am still trying to blame the low volume trebles of my classical on the severe runout of the very thin method of construction I tried.  I shoudl add that at first it was closed up thicker, maybe 2.5 -2.6 mm for most of the top. It had more treble volume, but it was tight sounding, could barely do a vibrato for example.

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Build log

Alex, I think all you have to do is send your vendor the picture you posted above. I can't believe that anyone could defend that wood as AAA--that's some SERIOUSLY short grain! You're right, mistakes can happen, and that board might have been sorted on a Friday at 4:30pm. Contact them and see what they say.

[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]

I applaud your choice not to reveal the name of the company that you got it from. I don't want to reveal the name of the company I got mine from either as I feel it would serve no good purpose. I have not contacted the company to get them to resolve this problem, but I will eventually. I am confident that they will replace the wood.

[/QUOTE]

I don't understand, or agree.
Once the company is given a chance to "make good" on their selling of a 'B' grade top as AAA (or whatever)- and that should involve much, much more than just replacing the defective top- the situation should be aired publicly here.

Time after time I've read 'glowing reviews' of suppliers- some selling very overpriced wood- here on the OLF.
When a business provides a bad product, it should be publicised as well.
Othewise, companies selling bad or mis-represented products (aka cheats) will continue to prosper- at the expense of more reputable firms who are doing a good job.
By keeping these issues 'secret' we are just helping firms who are victimising the novice and unwary builders who may not be able to check the wood they buy.

Anybody who can't recognize the extreme runout in the top shown in the picture has no business selling tonewood.

John

I agree with John on this one. The difference between the good and bad companies isn't in the positive reviews, every company who stays in business will have a load of positive reviews, it's the negative ones that matter.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

So I must not be able to see as clearly as everyone else. If I am understanding correctly. You split(I am assuming did not sawn it) the top lengthwise and you are showing the side grain runnout? Or have you split the top with the face to determine face runnout? Is the visable grain reasonably straight? Is the soundboard closely quartered at least at the ends?

I am really trying to fully understand since there is talk of a dealers reputation.

I know I saw my sets from split Bolts generally(unless I buy a billets from a dealer). That allows me to control my grain(at least get it as close as possible, you still have to saw though, and I have never run across a dead straight split bolt). I have always assumed most dealers do the same.

I have done a lot of testing on different woods for stiffness(with the grain and cross grain), but still for the life do not feel I have a good handle on grading. How people are able to grade even ruff sawn(3/16" thick, non surfaced) is beyond me. Of course I have only made a few hundred sets. Maybe when I have made thousands I will become more confident.

Peace,Rich

This might help Rich. Frets.com info.


Runout

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

I bought some englemann tops from a dude on Ebay one time and the
runout was almost as bad as your picture. Completely unusable. Tried to
get him to take it back (I bought 10 tops) and he would not so I just used it
as back joint reinforcements, and side braces..... expensive side braces
though...

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Don't be so hard on ebay sellers. There are some on there that dont know squat about tonewoods, but it is generally easy to filter them out. I have bought loads of wood from ebay and so far I havent got anything that is unusable from any of the dealers I choose to do business with.  I am very cautious about doing business on ebay, but if you are careful and know your end of the business you can get some really great deals on there.

Look at the pictures they offer, ask questions, and if there is any doubt about the wood or its seller dont buy it. I have even had dealers tell me up front when I asked questions that their wood they are selling on that particular auction is not what I am looking for and tell me nopt to bid on it. For that information, I rate that seller on the top of my list and then add them to my favorites so that I can regularly see what they have to offer. Most people selling on there are honest and will tell you exactly what you want to know.

For instance: I bought 5 sets of Englemann spruce tops from a dealer about 6 months ago. For what ever reason, nobody else bid on them and I got the 5 sets for $10. Shipping was extremely modest and quick. He had advertised the sets as AA grade. Because of the cheap price I paid for them, he could have easily given me sub-standard top sets. Instead, I got 5 sets that are excellent... no runout, beautiful creamy white, close growth rings, no color and no blemishes. To me, this was master grade stuff!!

Now I have just bought 50 sets from the same dealer and paid his price for them (still a bargain). I know in advance that this guy knows his woods and will give me excellent woods at an extremely fair price.

Like I said, you have to know your woods and know how to buy them, but you can find some real bargains on ebay.

Sorry, didnt mean to hijack your thread....

 

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Reguards,

Ken H

Thanks for the link Michael. That was my understanding.
This picture is of a bit of wood left over from cutting soundboards. I split the sides and to show face runnout.



I try to make cuts as parallel to the split face as I can. Of course I have never seen a billet or bolt split so straight that you could run a straight edge on it over 26 inches.

That aside, I am still curious about the picture above, because it looks like a split showing side grain, but not face(unless I am just mistaken. Which is very possible ).

Peaec,Rich

Hey Rich,

You may be interested in THIS OLF topic as it has some good info, and HERE is what Allied have to say on the topic of runout. The image at the top of this thread shows acute runout as evident in the edge of the plate, the divots out of the face look like they may have been caused by popping the bridge but I could be wrong.

Cheers

Kim

Yes the drawings in the thread show the issue quite well. The only difference is that in my image the fibers rise and exit the board from right to left and in the drawing from left to right.

Yes I have popped the bridge off, using a chisel as a lever and my monkey powers. A test for how well I glued my first, and if it was bad, I would have gotten a spare bridge. It seems I did a good job :) , one of the wings split, and also the top split in 3 places.  The face divots look like this because of the runout I guess.

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Build log

Following the suggestion of some of you guys, I have sent an email to the vendor. I did not try to sound furious and did not demand a replacement or refund, simply stated the problem and asked if I should expect more of this, and if I notice any, if i can return it.

They said that grading is mainly aesthetic, they look at color, at how straight and at the spacing of the face grain, at how well it is quartered and that runout is an issue if it is immediately obvious.  They said severe runout should not occur very often in AAA, and in any case, they are happy to accept a return if the customer is not satisfied.

I have nothing to argue with all the above. I knew from the start I have no case because I have used the wood (made a guitar then a bunch of bbq starters)

I actually work in a field that resembles tonewood dealing. We deal a certain type of collectible. Even if every item has an excellent picture and accurate description, we have to deal with returns because in hand they might have smth unappealing to the buyer. We accept returns no questions asked as long as the item is untouched. We don't ask questions because we are nice anyway, but also we don't have the time to argue with picky clients.
Our items can have hidden flaws as well as wood can have. We sometimes spend less time inspecting it closely because it has been sent by a long time partner we trust. So over the years we have had a couple returned because they were fake but looked ok at the first sight.
We rarely buy on ebay because the number of crooks is immense :)

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Build log

why would you want to waste a bridge. there are numerous threads on the techniques of bridge removal which if followed do not result in damage.

I really like THIS visual which shows the light side dark side effect at varying degrees of runout caused by light refraction when under a finish.

Cheers

Kim

Michael, i admit I was plain dumb :( I knew about the heating method, but I also wanted to check if the joint was strong enough, a test for both clamping method and the glue.  I kind of expected the spruce to crack and not the bridge.

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Build log

Thanks for the links Kim. light refraction is a good visual method if you recieve surfaced soundboards. Curly woods are a great example of how you can visually pick up on runnout. Using a plane to bevel a straight edge is a great method as long as you can sample a couple edges. Splitting the face as I did in that off cut is not generally an option. The wood that I split in that picture would show less than 1/3 of a degree of runnout across 22". The information from Allied indicated the effects of runnout are not readily measurable until 2 degrees, which is about 3/4" rise over the length of a soundboard(that seems like an awful lot). So if I am understanding that correctly they are saying that if you detect the runnout occuring over about 5 inches then you are within 2 degrees(about 9-10 would be 1 degree) on a typical ruff soundboard(.16" or so). If that soundboard was surfaced to .10" 2 degrees would occur in 2-3/4".I never knew that much was acceptable, but it is good information to know).

I am really curious now about this specific soundboard. Is there any way You could bevel(as they show in the link Kim posted) an edge and take a quick pic(preferably with a ruler for reference). Also the top(both halfs) to show how light refraction makes this set look. I think it would be interesting to figure out the percentage of runnout, and then calculate the rise across. It would be interesting to try to picture what the split billet or bolt(assuming it was split) looked like when they were cutting it.

Peace Rich

it is much easier to spot runout and grain problems in a raw unsurfaced top than one in which it has been planed or sanded. If you look at the direction of the "fuzz" of the grain and see changes in direction or areas where the fiber is indistinct, it will give you a clue as to runout. Even then sometimes unless you split off part of an edge you may not be able to see runout. Once the top is sanded and looks nice and even, it will be much more difficult to see the way the grain is running.

Additionally if you look at the evenness of the spacing of the grain and all of the sudden see very dense close grain it may be compression wood from a tree that was grown on the side of a hill leaning so that the grain on one side of the trunk is compressed while the other side is not.