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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:48 pm 
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[QUOTE=Rick Turner] How many years does it take to learn how to be a good triage nurse? How many dead patients? How many rigorous exams and reviews by tough MD supervisors?   

I don't want a hobbyist triage nurse in the ER when I come in having bled out 4 units of Type O Positive blood...which happened to me in 1973. If some of the self-proclaimed luthiers I read here had been triage nurses that day, I'd be dead. I had pros working on me, and they were all superbly trained. I owe my life to people who took learning seriously.

Try another analogy. That one is a bit too close to home.[/QUOTE]
Touche! But remember I said I want to cook the fugu, not serve it to the Emperor of Japan or my Mom.

My point with the medical analogy was one of specialization versus generalization. I do think your advice to do setups to learn proper setup technique is good, solid advice, but I don't think every guitarmaker needs to complete years of setups (and other functions that are the specialty of luthier repairmen) before building any guitars. If we all did, we'd all be a leg up on the (critical) functionality to make the guitar playable and intoned properly, but isn't it also true that completing 10 guitars hones a huge skillset that the non-builder, setup/repair luthier does not have?

It's also true that a forum like this provides a better platform for ooooohs and aaaaaahs from the photographs of beautiful instruments without knowing whether they would make a player oooh and aaah about the playability or the sound (even with supplied sound clips.) There are probably some gorgeous instruments shown here that are "guitar shaped objects", but I think you might be surprised how many of these instruments are actually very playable and very good sounding instruments. Remember, the current crop of beginning luthiers have an incredible array of talented, experienced luthiers (as formal instructors, as mentors, in forums, in books, on DVDs) to quantum-leapfrog past many of the mistakes/negative attributes that beginning luthiers had to struggle through not too many years ago. (I took my first stab at lutherie about 25 years ago, when there was Sloane's and Young's books and not much else.)

Dennis

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:37 pm 
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Thanks David, I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with.  I'll even read your book when it's done but 20-30 pages would suit me better than a whole book!  Having a kid has slowed my reading.  Unless you want to write it in Dr Suess rhyme....


Rick (or others), when you have time, some more specific questions....


What about your board?  Are you starting with something like a compound radius with the goal being a flat line under each string path? 


Do you build in any relief or count on tension to pull in the correct amount in the correct place?


Why is it better to level the board before fretting and have the frets build in back bow (vs. pressing frets in a board and then gluing it to the neck flat)?


Do you account for different amounts of backbow induced by different densities of fretboard material?  I find, using the same size slot, brazilian seems to bow less than ebony when frets are installed, presumably because it's less dense and the barbs dig in more.


What do you do if you get a neck that looks good with no tension but the strings pull the relief in the wrong spot (too close to the nut or more on the treble side than the bass)?


Should this be in a new thread?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:40 pm 
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Dennis, would you eat fugu you had prepared, unsupervised, untrained, and unschooled? Would you prepare fugu not knowing how to sharpen your own knife?

I consider fretwork and setups to be so essential to guitar making that they come in at that level...that of knowing how to sharpen a sushi chef's knife to do a job that if not done well can result it...well, you know! It's crawl before you walk before you run level stuff. And yes, it's a hell of a lot easier to learn now, so why should anyone avoid it? For the ego gratification of making a GLO and presenting it on the Internet as a guitar, that's why. I am not the ego run wild here...the ego rampants are those who value web presentation over playability.   Then there's sound...but I don't want to muddy the waters here with that; it's a much more subjective subject than playability which is subjective enough as it is.

I'm not going to beat this dead horse anymore. Suffice it to say that I think that those who do not study and master the basics are way off track here. Use the hobby excuse if you want to, but to paraphrase Orson Welles in a famous tv ad, "We'll use no excuse before it's time..." There are only lame excuses for not learning how to make a guitar play well if you want to be considered a luthier on the Official Luthier's Forum. In my humble opinion :-)!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:03 pm 
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[QUOTE=Rick Turner]Without going into major photography sessions what I can tell you is this:



For traditional frets..."T" cross section with a crown, the key is in perfect fingerboard prep. You are referencing the fret tops to the fit between the underside of the crown and the fingerboard itself.   So if you get the fingerboard surface right and seat the frets just right and very evenly, then you'll have a near-perfect fret job.


[/QUOTE]

Up to this point I have the rim nearly completed, back and top plates joined and a rosette inlayed. Not much, but making progress at least. I am not only new to building guitars, but also to woodworking in general. Not even a Jr. High shop class to put a notch in my belt.

I think the neck, fretboard, frets, intonation, and such are to me the most intimidating to think about when thinking of lutherie. It has to be so.... perfect.... which I won't be able to accomplish. This is probably why I started on the body first - I admit I am just plain nervous to move to the next stage. I have a starting point now though, I will get a book, check the archives and maybe even do a refret first. But I have a few questions that your last response got me thinking about.

As I was typing Kent actually asked a couple of these questions -

When doing the initial fret install, do you go straight to sanding block or do you use a hand plane to start? Compound radius (Kent asked)?  I have many more questions but I suppose I should hold back for now.

Thanks,


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:15 pm 
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Scratch that! I'm moving over to Hesh's thread now! If anyone cares to answer my questions, I think it should be over there as well. It probably won't be too organized if we go too deep into tutorials or technical answers here. 

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Louis Hector Berlioz

Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:16 pm 
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Still have not built a guitar but this thread has made me re-prioritize my focus on how critical these basic skills are and have not really tried to understand fretting/set up basics and would have just plunged into it and deal with the problems as it comes. I will endeavor to learn and try to understand this process. I appreciate everyone's imput and perspective on this thread,.


 


ckp



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:20 pm 
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We don't literally "plane". We sand with shaped blocks including the long aluminum StewMac one for which I was a beta tester. It's great.

The closest we come to what you might be doing is with our Model 1 electrics. We hand final level the boards with the concave sanding block, and we don't do a compound radius...nobody ever asks for it, and I really think that we don't build guitars in the style where that is an advantage, at least not right now. We block 'em to 400 grit, clean out the slots either by hand or with a fine tapered dental burr in a Dremal, and then we hammer the frets in dry. Once they're in, we look for high points, tap them down, and wick in the superglue. Then it's level, crown, and polish as needed. If there are any issues when the guitar is strung up, we do a spot LCP with 220 and 400 grit self stick sandpaper stuck on a piece of 1/2" x 1/2" x 1/16" wall thickness x 4" or 6" long aluminum angle stock so we can have the strings up to full pitch while we chase down any mild high spots. One flange of the angle stock just fits right under a string, and you can work the problem area 'til the high point is level, test with strings on, and then go back and crown and polish. You do the frets under one string at a time and work between the strings as well, and you do the absolute minimum that gets the guitar playing right. This finds "S" bends in necks as well as simple high frets.   It is the single greatest trick I've come up with in 44 years of doing fret levels. The tool costs about $.35 to make, it does everything that the StewMac fretting jig claims to do, and it's stupidly easy to use; I should have patented it.

All is changing for us as we tool up our CNC machine, but the basics are still there with conventional frets.

Bear in mind, though, that I make no attempt at fitting a fingerboard to an acoustic guitar top. I cantilever the fingerboard over the top and it doesn't touch. None of that fussy fitting or top movement is an issue for us.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:30 pm 
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Thank you for that Rick! You answered several of my unasked questions actually. Only difference here is that I don't think I can attempt to cantilever or "float" (I don't know if these are the same) the fingerboard over the top. I will probably just glue it as so many do. 

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Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:36 pm 
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Rick, what are the chances of getting Traugott to hang out here? I'll be in
Santa Cruz for a week in two weeks. Would it be possible to come watch
for an hour?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:44 pm 
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You won't get Traugott here. He hates to type, and he reserves his hang time for his customers...who are quite willing to pay him exorbitant amounts of money for the privilege...and they get a great guitar, too. Not a bad idea on his part...and why he can ask 26 K for a straight ahead version of his guitar. His lutherie theory discussion time is mostly spent talking to Ken Parker or to me. I just show up for lunch at his place and we eat and shoot the breeze and help each other out with stuff.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:19 pm 
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Rick, Great to have your wisdom.

Your passion for the PLAYER rather than the photographer is inspiring.

I can make a decent looking box with a neck on it, but it's the set up that makes it a guitar.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:05 pm 
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[QUOTE=Rick Turner] ....If some of the self-proclaimed luthiers I read here had been triage nurses that day, I'd be dead. [/QUOTE]

Rick mate,

I take my hat of to your years of experience and Im grateful for the fact that youve taken the time to lend your technical expertise to this forum.

What grates with me is your choice of words at times. I'm as thick skinned as the next man (have to be...I work on an oil rig) but when you start talking about the "self-proclaimed luthiers on this forum" I'm reminded of a piano teacher I once had who used to whack me across the knuckles and curse whenever I played a wrong note. I quickly lost interest in the piano and quit the lessons. I took up classical guitar with a teacher who took the opposite approach...he never hit me or resorted to insults when I played a wrong note. I stayed with that teacher untill he died and thanks to him ended up with a passion for playing guitar and eventually a passion for building guitar like objects.





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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:04 pm 
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[QUOTE=old man]

The gauntlet, boss, the gauntlet. All I said was Hmmmm.

I don't know you, Rick, and I've never seen nor heard one of your instruments. Nor do I particularly desire to. However, I do know many of the members here who seem to hold you in as high regard as you hold yourself, so I cede that you build great guitars. That's not what is offensive here. What's offensive is your attitude. Everytime you post it is just to toot your own horn. I've heard the Grateful Dead story before and I'm not impressed. Give me a builder who is very, very good and willing to share without belittling others. We have several of these world class builders and world class people here. Many may not be offende by your attitude, but many are. I would love to know all that you know, Rick, but I will ignore your postings until your delivery improves. Can you handle honest criticism?

Ron[/QUOTE]

Wished Id seen this post a bit earlier. Ron has pretty well summed up what I'm trying to say in recent posts.

For the time being I'm taking a break from actively participating in this forum. Anybody whos interested in whats going in my box building workshop can PM/email me for the blog address.

Cheers Martin Turner (no relation)



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:23 pm 
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Jeff registered here a couple of years back,

Username: Jeff Traugott
Group: Walnut
Account Status: Active
Online Status: Offline
Your Real Name: Jeff Traugott
Joined: 19 October 2005

I think Bryan Galloup nudged him in the ribs a few times to get over here and at least check us out.

Although I totally understand the value of Jeff's time, it sure would be cool to see him participate.
I hear hes a heck of a nice guy..

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:39 am 
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[QUOTE=Kent Chasson]

Do you build in any relief or count on tension to pull in the correct amount in the correct place?


Why is it better to level the board before fretting and have the frets build in back bow (vs. pressing frets in a board and then gluing it to the neck flat)?


Do you account for different amounts of backbow induced by different densities of fretboard material? I find, using the same size slot, brazilian seems to bow less than ebony when frets are installed, presumably because it's less dense and the barbs dig in more.


What do you do if you get a neck that looks good with no tension but the strings pull the relief in the wrong spot (too close to the nut or more on the treble side than the bass)?


Should this be in a new thread?

[/QUOTE]

Kent has some excellent questions. I too am curious as to how other people are approaching these things.

As for me, I slot the fretboard, then radius, then glue it to the neck. Once it's glued to the neck and the neck is shaped I put in a little relief. To get the relief in the right spot, I try to simulate tension by locking the heel mortise in a vise and pushing on the headstock. If the bend isn't happening at the 6-7th fret (where I want the relief centered) I can take out material to compensate. Finally I fret using an arbor press and caul.

For me getting really good playability comes from adding that relief in before fretting. I started doing it this way after Ervin's class and figure I now get the low E string an extra 1/32" closer to the fretboard at the 12th fret without any buzzes using this technique compared to having a perfectly straight board before fretting.

And finally I agree, maybe this should be in another thread.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:29 am 
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Rick:

I've been cutting strips of soft plastic (from coffee can tops and the like) and putting them in the fret slots before cutting the taper in the 'board. I leave them in until I'm ready to fret. The plastic is just the right thickness to stay put, and it keeps all the sculch out of the slot, including glue when you make a bound board. You might have trouble finding that many coffee cans, but I'd bet there's a plastic supplier that sells the stuff in sheets. It saves a lot of time.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:19 am 
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Al, I like that a lot. We can probably get appropriate material from McMaster-Carr.   We're going through some changes right now trying to figure out just when during the finish process to put the frets in to minimize finish build up at the fret ends/fingerboard and yet do as little potentially finish damaging fretwork.   For us there's no one answer as we do some necks in gloss and some in satin.   For the gloss ones, we're fretting after the last coat of finish and before final rubout.   For the satin necks, we're sealing them in poly first, then flat sanding and fretting, then blowing on two thin coats of satin urethane and not touching the necks. The satin is "as sprayed". That takes a fairly clean spray environment... We want to do as little fretwork as possible on instruments that are either rubbed out or satin finished. There's too much chance of nicking or scratching something, and these have to go out as perfect new instruments.

BTW, we're laying on two to four coats of Waterlox, a "long oil" varnish that looks great on fingerboards and also makes a fantastic pre-sealer under our sprayed finishes. They don't sell it as a varnish, but it's got tung oil (a drying oil) and a couple of resins suspended in it, and that pretty much meets the definition of an "oil varnish" in any references I've read. The stuff enhances the adhesion of any other finish you put on, and it seals the pores from outgassing into the first coats of either vinyl sealer or the McFadden's rosewood sealer we blow onto everything before moving on to polyester.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:39 am 
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As a newbie to this forum and a newbie to the art of building guitars, I just want to chime in and say that a legitimate question has been asked in this thread and legitimate and enlightening answers have been given -- along with a wealth of information. Rick, I sincerely hope that your participation will continue. Having the bar set high is good for us, even if it isn't real comfortable once in a while. I know where to look at my skill set and improve!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:16 pm 
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boy, what a great thread.

regarding rick's comments about the order in which one should proceed along the lutherie path, i think those words are wise and well spoken for those on the fast track, hoping to make a living real quick at this. here on the forum i don't know who you are or who rick is referring to. i generally like all of you, your helpfulness, and the spirit of the conversation. keep it up!

but further to what rick has said, every time i crack open a new acoustic guitar magazine, it seems that 4 new names that i've never heard of have hung out their shingle and are attempting to make a go of it. i can't question the quality of their guitars because i haven't seen them. but all of them would do well to read rick's words and understand that any profession takes years to master.

for other's of us on the forum like myself though, we're dealing with full time jobs, young families, other hobbies and commitments, and in my case pretty limited financial resources. what i want to do with my hobby time is build guitars - start to finish. that's my thrill, albeit one that is very slow in coming at times. nobody (other than my wife i suppose) can tell me how i should or should not spend my hobby time.

i believe the key here is to not claim that i'm a luthier, and to be honest with the friends that "buy" my guitars by telling them that they are taking a risk along with me as i'm just learning and probably will be for many years to come. i can't promise a 'certain minimum sound' as grit laskin puts it, because i don't have the experience. and i can't guarantee perfect set up because i'm still new to this. for example, my second guitar sounds amazing, but had to be brought by my buddy to someone else for final setup. no offense taken. and a great reminder to me that i'm not really a luthier and shouldn't claim to be one. the guitar now plays as good as it sounds.

on a related note about the rice Iisn't that where this thread started?), here's an interesting experience. for sake of finding out if i was getting anywhere near the ball park, i brought #3 into a little shop where the guy who owns it also does great set-up work. he strummed a little. i commented on my hack fret work and asked for some advice. he didn't seem too concerned. instead, he asked if i'd ever considered doing inlay. remember, this guy is also a retailer and that, apparently, is what sells. interesting.

so, because i'm in this hobby to make inspiring tools for musicians (great reminder rick), i don't think i'll bother with any more retail evaluations on my instruments. i'd rather pick and choose the people to whom i want to "sell" them and know that they will love playing them as much as i love building them. my wife too reminds me to sell the guitars to people who 'play.'

cheers, and thanks for the great conversation.

phil


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:54 pm 
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Rick, thanks for sharing your knowledge. Using the angle stock under the
strings is such a good idea. Gotta try it.

I apprenticed/worked with two different luthiers a few years ago, and it
still took me another year to feel comfortable with fretwork. It really is
the most important aspect, imho.

I think the key is sanding the fretboard and frets level with something as
long as the fretboard after using radius blocks. I've been using a hollow,
square piece of metal that I picked up at Home Depot for a couple bucks,
and it works great. It's probably 20" long. Flatten a couple sides of it
with sandpaper on plate glass, and stick some different grits of
sandpaper on.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:52 am 
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Rick,

Thanks for you contribution to what I think has been one of the most thought provoking and constructive threads in a very long time.

I have been a huge fan and was an Alembic player before getting into your pickups and other ventures.

While I play every kind of guitar I only build classical guitars so at least when I fret I dont have the same number of variables as with a radiused fingerboard but absolutely agree that fretting and action are the most important things that will make a guitar playable. A classical player can pick up any number of instruments that sound good but I believe that the guitar has to feel as good to play as it sounds to differentiate a good guitar from a players guitar.

I appreciate your real world feedback and the time you have taken to respond to this forum.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:28 am 
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I've bought teflon sheet stock from McMaster Carr just for the application that Al describes, it works great. I actually grabbed onto the idea a few years back from a different post from Al on a different forum.
So thanks Al! It saves a lot of time for me anyway.

BTW; I think it's great that we have Rick actively posting here. There's a lot of wisdom there from decades of building and he seems to be willing to pass it on. We should be thankful.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:58 am 
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I got talking with some of my students last night about this thread, and some interesting stuff came up. Although fretwork and setup might be the 'rice' of _guitarmaking_, the same can't apply to the larger world of lutherie. So how do we generalize?

To go to the next obvious case, the frets on lutes, early gutiars, and gambas, are tied, rather than hammered into slots. Aside from being careful about the diameter of the gut you use, about the only thing you can do is to pay a lot of attention to the shape of the fingerboard before you tie them on. The same holds true on violins, and on fretless basses, as Rick certainly knows. Rick already said this; the key to good fretwork is not the frets, any more than the key to good finish work is the finish.

But what about the harps, harpsichords, hammered dulcimers, and other things that are in the legitimate purview of the luthier, broadly speaking? Here, playability can't depend on the neck, since there isn't one!

Todd Stock made a good stab at a reasonable generalization:

"- Do things in a committed fashion
- Pay attention
- Maintain a healthy disrespect for unsubstantiated or unsupported conventional thinking
- Focus on the stuff you don't do well "

I'd have said 'healthy skepticism' rather than 'direspect'. For one thing, it's hard to think of any case where disrespect is a positive attitude. More importantly, though, we have to remember that there are plenty of things that people know in a non-rational way which are perfectly true. Folks chewed willow bark for the salicylic acid (aspirin) long before biologists and chemists figured out why it might work, and even now there are aspects of the opperation of that drug that are not well understood. In our own field, I read that Eugene Clark does not have even a radio in his shop, so that he can 'hear the wood'. He may not be able to tell you in a rational or 'scientific' way what he's hearing, but it is entirely likey that his brain is integrating a lot of subconsciously aquired data that he has learned to correlate with 'good' sound. Certainly assertions that are backed up with objectively repeatable data can be accepted with more confidence than those that are not, but I'd be loath to toss out the years of experience of somebody like Clark just because he lacks such data.

That aside, commitment, and paying attention are really important, but paying attention to what? We pay a lot of attention to our wood, for example, but Rick has rightly pointed out the current obsession with 'zoot' as something that is really secondary. Just because you mananged to score a fancy set of wood, are you a better luthier? The Hills stated that many of the finest instruments of Strad's later life are made of rather plain wood. I'd say a person who can make a great instrument out of poor wood is the better luthier. Michelangelo's 'David' was carved from a block other sculptors rejected. Maybe we're paying attention to the wrong thing there.   

Given that playability is a key aspect of making a good instrument, what it it that determines playability? To answer that, we need to know how the instrument works. On a guitar, neck and fretwork are keys, while on a harp you have to think a lot about the string gauges and tension, and how that relates to their length and pitch. This will be true to some extent on a harpsichord as well, but there another critical issue is how the jack is regulated.

For the sushi maker, rice is important because it forms the basis on which all the rest is built. Our 'rice' then, has to be something basic, an understanding at some level of how the instrument works in the hands of the musician. The understanding need not be rational, and much of it probably cannot be, owing to the subjective nature of taste. Much of this will be very subtle, if only because the designs we often work with are so nearly optimised already. The difference between the best guitar and an average one are likely to be difficult to specify in any exact way, but they matter a great deal to the player.

So, yeah, be committed, pay attention, focus on improving every day, but most of all, learn what really matters, and try to understand how it all works to make something that serves the player better in the making of music. We'll leave all the stuff about getting chicks to them.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:11 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:48 am
Posts: 2094
[QUOTE=ToddStock] So...in a nutshell...

- Do things in a committed fashion
- Pay attention
- Maintain a healthy disrespect for unsubstantiated or unsupported conventional thinking
- Focus on the stuff you don't do well

Pretty standard advice, and pretty good.

I don't think there's any magic here, other than actually doing it. [/QUOTE]

This is an EXCELLENT summary. I've printed this out in large friendly letters and am going to stick it on the wall of my workshop. If I feel I can't meet up to those standards, I'm shutting the door and going to work on something else until I start again. That is why I leave a month or two between builds; to regather that focus and committment.

Y'know, this is probably amognst the best threads I have read on the OLF; I have a file full of print-outs of practical advice form the forum.

Thankyou.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:08 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 2060
Good points Alan. Ironically I "refretted" a viola da gamba just yesterday, and
later in the day stopped by my friend David Sutherland's shop to help with a
harpsichord. I haven't actually touched any other fret work or nuts and
saddles at all this week.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.


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