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A friend of mine cut a large spruce tree last week. He cut me a large billet 4 ft long, 8" x 15". I had explained him how to quartercut it. It is not exactly as it could be, but it will be usable with a little imagination while cutting the tops. I want to use it for tops, guitars and/or mandos. I left it in my garage thinking that I would let it dry a little and take care of it later.
Today I went in the garage and found that the billet start to crack as it is drying. I decided to paint the end to stop the cracking, but I am not sure that this will do.
Is it preferable to cut it now in thin tops or will the paint stop the cracking and then I can cut it when it is dryer.

Thanks

From my understanding it at least needs the end grain sealed with
something like wax or a comercial sealer but there should be some good
info from the like of shane or some of the other wood guys here...I htink you
will end up cutting it at least into smaller billets thats pretty big hunk of
wood and would take forever to dry....

_________________
Zac

Anchorage Alaska

Finshed my 1st! See #1 here

As I understand you need to cut it wet, I think some even advise to soak spruce billets in water when first received from a miller until your right to go. It is not easy to resaw either, you want a blade with around 1 TPI or less.

Someone more experienced will clear this up I'm sure but these details have prevented me from bringing a bolt into Australia.

Cheers

Kim

if you painted the ends of the billet with cheap latex paint, this should stop the end checking. I would suggest giving it several coats to make sure you get all of the ends covered. Store it where it can get plenty of air circulation around it, out of the sun. If possible, keep it out of the heat for a few weeks also but not in air conditioning.

There is a product called "Anchorseal" that is made by UCCoatings  that is made from wax that works best for this, but since you have already painted it just go with the latex paint.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

I haven't seen Shane post in a while, but if it were me, I would PM him. He knows.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

If you end sealed over cracks and checks that were present it'll do no good. You'll need to trim the ends back past the checks and re-seal immediately. Once end checks are present they will continue to enlarge regardless of sealing.

DO NOT treat this like hardwood, I think Todd is on the money, saw now. As I understand if you wait to dry it end checking is not your only worry, the wood fibre becomes increasingly tenacious as it drys making it very difficult for even a 1 tpi blade to clear the swaft as it cuts. I would look up some links for you but I have stuff I need to do now. Shane is out in the sticks cutting wood so will probably not respond. Work Google and see what you come up with but I would fins out asap.

I am certain I have read advise to soak green bilets of spruce in water to stabilize prior to resawing but this may only be required if the wood has shipped from say BC to California where a big shift in temp and RH takes place.

Cheers

Kim

I am going to give what Todd and KIm are telling you a BIG 1+, Do not treat softwood like hardwood(very good advise, at least if you want a reasonable yield). This is large wood and it will crack and check like no other in large form. I would align your split face as close as possible, square that side. Use that face to develop your back. Then slice it up at about 3/16"(if you want soundboards). Then sticker it place the stickered wood on a good flat surface and weight,band or tie wrap it. You will likely get next to no loss this way.

If you let it set for a couple weeks(actually days if your humidity is low) the cracks and checks will continue to develop quickly. It is a good idea to spray it down and seal it up in garbage backs or plastic wrap till you choose how to proceed. Wetter is safer, until you make up your mind.

Peace,Rich

I am talking about a short term(a day or two) way to stop the damage(while you choose how to proceed). If you do nothing your losses will grow quickly. The damage is being caused by shrinkage and the volume of the wood not allowing for any movement. Larry is spot on as always that the crack is now the point that the wood will choose to relieve the stress of shrinkage. If you are soaking them for a longer period some use a bit of bleach in the water. I am familiar with dealing with large spruce bolts, but I cut them quickly and certainly defer to Shane or Larry.

Peace,Rich

A friend and I got a nice size white spruce tree back in '88. Unfortunately, it was cut just before the weekend of the big folk festival we show at, so it made for quite a long weekend. We ended up with a lot of good wood, although there were few guitar tops, owing to twist and prevalent pitch pockets. However, we had little drying degrade. Here's what we did.

First, we got right at it. The tree had been dropped and sectioned into two foot long drums, and we started in the next day. I think we did all the splitting in three days. Puff puff.

We split the drums into wedges that were as narrow as we thought we could get away with. The important thing to remember is that the tangential shrinkage is much greater than radial, and this has the effect of trying to straighten out the annual ring lines, as seen on the end grain. The more curvature to the annual ring lines, the greater the likelihood of checking, as the wood can't cup enough to accomodate the stress. It's amazing how much this difference can amount to. I've got some small pieces of dogwood that I simply cut into quarters on the bandsaw when I got them. The pieces started out with right angles between the quartered cut faces, and they now subtend less than 85 degrees. It's a wonder they never checked. Anyway, we split the spruce logs into wedges that were about 2" thick on the bark side.

We removed the bark. It's waterproof, and you want the wood to dry as quickly as possible, to avoid mold discoloration. Taking the bark off when the wood is green is much easier.

We painted the ends with a couple of coats of cheap latex paint. This is _not_ water proof; the idea is not to stop moisture release from the ends, but rather to control it, so that it's at the same rate as it is from other surfaces. This keeps the shrinkage the same all around: the other cause of checking is from the ends being dryer, and hence smaller, than the rest of the billet.

We stacked the wood in an open stack, with each layer of pieces running across the layer underneath, to minimize the wood to wood contact and maximise air exposure. The stack was built outside, in a shaded spot: full sun is too fast drying for such thick billets, but you want air circulation.

We covered the top of the stack with plastic to keep the rain off, but otherwise left it open.

We re-stacked the wood again after about a week, and once more a week or so later. Each time we looked over every piece for checking and mold problems, and did what we could to fix them.

I got a lot of good brace wood from that tree, and a number of nice violas and fiddles. I've still got some left, in fact.

Micheal Gurian, when he had his mill here in New Hampshire, used to resaw tops from wet logs, and hang them out on a clothesline to dry. He said that the faster you got the moisture out of the wood, the lighter and more uniform color it will be.

Worked for me; YMMV/

If your choice is to allow for thicker top sets or smaller split wedges the reduced dimension will minimise risk. I prefer larger split wedges(and 26-28 or so inches in length, this allows you a chance to cut away wood that may have started to check or crack) if you are sawing for soundboards(4-8" on the skinny). My motivation is really based more on ease of prep(you have to true your sides to start the sawing) for the resaw and speed(I can just keep slicing after I get the edges), also makes the off cuts large enough to get more good bracing stock. I figure the faster I get them sliced up the better. Of course this is split wood. Right now you have a dimensioned cut of wood. Do you plan to split the wood to minimize runnout or did you do that during milling?

Peace,Rich

Hmmm... 3 posts, I better be quiet now. I am hogging up your topic . I really wish you the best of luck, and hope you get lots of great sets.

Hey Alain,

There are about three threads in the archives that I have posted on how I
process spruce. I have a small set-up, comparitively speaking, my saw is
24 inches so my methods would be the same for any of you that would
want to process wood yourself. Search on "Harvesting" and I think you
will find the threads. But in short, here is my suggestion:

It sounds from your post that you have a cant 8 x 15 x 48. Already
squared on a band mill or something. If you think your buddy did a good
job of dealing with runout then you are good to go, if he didn't or you are
unsure then you should split this block. I always start with split billets
ans use a laser on my saw to fallow that face. When I process I buck the
tree to about 24 to 26 inches long. Then I split out retangular billets 4 to
6 inches wide. Then I remove the bark and split them again so that the
outside face to inner face dimension is about 10 to 12 inches. That way I
can stand them up on my saws carriage to get that first cut. I use the
wedges that occur in between the billets for bracewood. So back to your
wood. If it were mine I would buck it in half so you had two pieces 24
inches long. Then I would get the billets lined up and adjusted so that
you were getting good quartersawn sets with minimal runout. Then I
would start slicing. I have agressive bands on my saw, they are actually
woodmizer re-saw bands, so I set my saw to 1/4 inch to the outside of
the band when I am in good wood and a little thicker if I think the wood
will have some issues that careful thicknessing can resolve. So I end up
netting about 3/16 inches. Once I have the sets sawn I trim them to
length and label them to ensure that when the dog or kids knocks a pile
over I can get everything back together. To dry the sets I sticker them
with 1/4 in x 5/8 stickers and place a box fan at the end of the pile. I run
3 sets (6 pieces) per row and it works well for me, that works out to about
120 sets per box fan, I have 5 or so of them. It is important to remove
the surface moisture as fast as you can, otherwise you will get blue stain.
I don't add any chemicals to any of the process just because I don't know
how they will react with the various finishes my customers will use. I
never soak the wood but I ALWAYS process when the wood is green or
wet. If I am not able to process right away then the wood stays in the tree
form, covered by natures perfect package. You end up with about 6
inches on the ends lost but the rest will stay good for about a year, before
rot starts to set in. Bugs will get into the sap wood but that is coming off
anyway and they don't go into the wood that you will be using for the
tops.

I hope this helps, if I have confused you, just ask away and I will see I can
clear it up!

Shane

_________________
Canada

As another guy who has done a lot of commercial lutherie resawing, I second and third everything said above by the guys who have actually done this stuff. Saw it as soon as possible to as close as possible to your final dimensions leaving enough to joint, plane, or sand.

This is no place to be repeating things that you've heard or read (soaking the wood in water) if you haven't done this stuff. That is the kind of perpetuation of myth that drives me nuts on the Internet. You are not an expert on saw milling or resawing unless you've done it, and unless you are expert in it, butt out and let the guys who do this stuff for a living tell it like it is. There are enough of us here who do this stuff for real for everyone at the OLF to get real sawyers' knowledge.

Yeah, there goes Rick again being a hard-a**...
Sorry, but why chime in here unless you have a real question or a real understanding of the issues?   There are bars and social clubs for idle chat...

Sounds like you have done it all there Rick and YOUR way is the only right way once again. You are correct, I am certainly no expert and I am sure that few here will ever reach your standard. However I do recall now where I got the advise to soak spruce before you resaw.

It was from a fellow called Mario Decosta, you may know him, Mario has some funny names for his wood but it is very good lutzii all the same. In fact he mills just across the road from our good friend Shane Neifer at the Terrace BC.

Mario still advises his customers the same way today. That is to say that should they buy a bolt from him to resaw for themselves, that upon receipt, they should soak it in a tub of water for 24hrs before they attempt to do so.

Maybe you had best go tell him to "but out" as well. After all, what the heck would he know compared to THE Rick Turner? Silly bugger only makes his living cutting spruce up for guitars.

Shane, have you heard of this???

Oh, and Rick, unlike you, I never did make claim to being an expert, you should go back and re-read what was posted before you go jumping down anyone's throat. What I did do was offer sound and quite accurate caution and I did so just after Alain ask the question. Waiting 2 days for you to turn up and save the day would not have done anything to prevent what was already a problem for him.

Just a bit of advise for you on a topic that I do know something about. Don't go to a "bar or social club for idle chat" Rick. With your over bearing attitude I don't think you would remain enjoy yourself for too long.

If anyone here has a cat to skin you had best check with Rick first or you will probably be doing it all wrong.

Cheers to most

Kim

[QUOTE=Rick Turner]
Yeah, there goes Rick again being a hard-ass...
Sorry, but why chime in here unless you have a real question or a real understanding of the issues?   There are bars and social clubs for idle chat...[/QUOTE]

I know your a relatively new boy to this forum, so I guess you don't know how this one works. But Lance has often described the character of his forum as a bunch of mates down the pub chewing the fat. Now, if you don't want to be social, and you don't seem to have a lot of social skills, then I suggest you go find another forum to ruin the way you seem determined to ruin this one. I just hope Lance has the courage to do something about it, before you kill this one.

There does seem to be only two ways of doing things the wrong way and the Rick Turner way, and only people that do it the Turner way are deserving of any respect, and a lot of us are getting pretty fed up with it.

There are many great builders here, world class guys, with knowledge just as extensive, if not more so than yours, but they treat the rest of the membership, the hobby guys and beginners, with a respect that you just don't seem to understand.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Very good, Colin.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Guys,
Please play nice...........

Please keep your comments kind and courteous.
There is always a way to say it nicely.
IMO the 1# reason the OLF has thrived is the continued effort we -all- put into being nice to one another. This is one of our few but simple rules.

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I do try to be nice Lance as a matter of course, but it's very difficult when it is all one sided

Lance, a lot of us are getting very fed up with Rick Turners 'style'. If you don't want the forum to fall apart and to carry on in the way that we all want, then I suggest that you do something about it, rather than just telling us to be 'nice'. Everything was fine before, there is only one thing that has changed recently, a new member joined, who seems want to be rude to everyone that isn't one of his disciples.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Rick may be bold, but he brings experience to the table. I can deal with a bold personality to have him as a resource. He certainly makes no bones about who he is.

"Yeah, there goes Rick again being a hard-a**... "


I am not sure why he singled out soaking wood as particularly bad advise(although the first time I heard Mario tell me he did that on the phone, I was unsure , but then again it beats the alternative if you do not have the ability to saw immediately ). When Alain is in this situation-"I left it in my garage thinking that I would let it dry a little and take care of it later.
Today I went in the garage and found that the billet start to crack as it is drying. I decided to paint the end to stop the cracking, but I am not sure that this will do.
Is it preferable to cut it now in thin tops or will the paint stop the cracking and then I can cut it when it is dryer.".
Right now the wood is losing usable dimension because the shell is cracking and checking due to the way it is drying. The addition of water to the shell can slow the damage quickly, and he can get right to splitting and sawing. Given the situation, it seems resonable to stop this from happening. The end grain seal may have bought some time, if it was fresh and wet. It will not do the job at this point. You certainly want to get the wood cut and get the moisture out of there quickly to prevent staining, but even slight staining is better than slicing unusable soundboards because checking or cracking has made them unusable(yes, I admit I learned this the hard way , and I don't want it to happen to Alain). I would have thought sealing the end grain at this point and leaving it to dry(which would be ok for other situations) would have drawn Rick's attension more quickly , but he may have just glancing at the replies.

The way I saw is based a LOT on what I read from Shane. I have learned to adapt to my part time cutting situation(I certainly do not cut as a full time job* last year I cut about 150 soundboards, this year looks to be about 300- which is NOTHING compaired a guy like Shane). Because I don't have the log in front of me, as I have the split wood shipped or freighted to me. This means I get the wood later than Shane. because of that I do have to try to keep the wood in tact as I get it down to size. This is where my suggestions are coming from.

Peace,Rich

Rich,

You put down in a post was I was thinking concerning Rick. I'm glad he is on board as a resource. You can take his advice or not just like anyone else on the forum. Sometimes it takes people a little while to settle in.

Different strokes for different folks.....

Peter

Thanks guys for the advice, I understand the answer to my question is: cut it as soon as possible.   
Thanks Shane for the details this is helpfull.

Here are some pictures I just took.
As you can see, there is a crack running in the middle of the beam. I am planning to split it in this crack, then start resawing from there.
To get the most tops, I plan to resaw some at 90 degree then to keep my resawing radial take some wedge (for mando or violin, etc) then some more continue with more guitasr tops.
What do you think.
My fellow should have left it thicker

Oops forgot the pictures...