Official Luthiers Forum!

Hesh,I`ve talked to Monica personally ,and she says she knows you.
                       James

_________________
James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

I think it is just a matter of perspective. One well known vet of the business told me of a day when awesome curly koa was $35 a set and they didn't sell much of it. So I suspect that some of this is just the natural order of things.

However, I am sure that something you can take to the bank is that the wood you are buying today will cost more in the future. That is a bit of a reason to stock up now.

But (for me at least) an even bigger reason is as these woods get scarcer and scarcer the quality seems to drop off rapidly. I have about 50 sets of nice ribbon hondo mahogany that I have been acquiring. Everytime I see a nice board or a good set at a reasonable price I buy it. It only stands to reason that as time goes on this trend will continue.

Right now, I have focused my wood acquisition into rosewoods (brw, coco, eir, and madrose mostly), south american mahogany (especially nicely figured pieces), Madagascar ebonies (fbs mostly), and a few select maples. I am almost certain that this will be a good investment and in time my woods will be of a "premium" grade that is next to impossible to find.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Well I never can buy cocobolo for $17-$20 per b/f Good coco is more in the $40 range. I sold some of that high figured quilted sapele sets a few years ago 3 sets for $375 with free shipping. Now you can't buy one set for that. How about the bags and bags of scraps that are only good for kindling. That easily amounts to hundreds of dollars per month. Or how about the gorgeous 3" thick piece of curly narra that I cut into and had an insect track running on a diagonal clear thru the piece. Yield on that piece 0 sets.
Sure lot's of headplates but that doesn't even come close to getting your money back IF you sell any. Carbide blades that cost $185 ea, electric bills approaching $400 a mo., and that's small compared to someone with a shop the size of Rick's, shipping cost that have gone thru the roof because of high oil prices. Sourcing good timber takes a lot of work and time with no guarantee that it will be of high quality. I could go on and on but I won't. I just love wood too much and seeing someone's finished guitar with wood they have bought from me makes it all worthwhile.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

[QUOTE=Kelby] At the risk of ticking off the suppliers (sorry guys) . . .

Buy a good bandsaw and find a good hardwood store --- one that doesn't call itself a luthier supplier!

That's not a knock on the suppliers, because they need to charge for their time and make a profit. And there are some things you just can't get at an ordinary hardwood store --- well-quartered spruce, or Brazilian, for example.

But in general, a guy can save some serious bucks if he has a good bandsaw and a little time.

It costs me about $20 for enough Honduras Mahogany to make three two-piece laminated neck blanks.

I pay $30/bf for Cocobolo that is over 8" wide (it's much cheaper if you buy narrower pieces). For $150, I get enough wood to make 4 back & side sets and have enough left over to make half a dozen bridge blanks.

Last summer, I bought a board of Curly Koa that set me back $200 (ouch), but there's enough there to make about 200 pieces of binding. And this Koa has as good a curl as you'd find in any of the stuff from the luthier supply houses.

You have to shop around, of course, because not everyone has good stuff, and not everyone charges reasonable prices. But there are plenty of hardwood stores that do.

If I were trying to make a living at this, I don't know whether my time shopping for wood, resawing, thicknessing, sanding, etc. would justify the savings. But I'm not trying to make a living. I love going down to the hardware store and digging through the wood piles --- picking out wood is one of my favorite parts of building. And I enjoy it even more knowing that my Cocobolo costs me an average of $37.50 per set (including a bridge), my curly koa binding costs me $1 per piece, and my neck blanks cost me $7 each.

If you are going to buy from luthier suppliers, the sponsors here are all great. And there's a lot of work that goes into selecting, resawing and drying wood, plus the advertising and customer service stuff. So they earn their keep. But there is a cheaper way, if you have the time and the bandsaw.[/QUOTE]

Kelby- I seriously doubt you are going to "tip" anyone off to a secret here, or that a vendor will take offense. What you are saying is that you are spending your time and using your resources and tools. What you are doing is painting a little bit of a rosie picture on the resawing side. Being honest, you can not randomly pick up good high grade 8"+ wide Cocobolo(although every now and then you happen across a fair cut that is good enough for use). If you go to a supplier that carries a lot of wide high grade, they will charge a healthy price for it. This is true of a few woods that are used by furnature and cabnet shops. There are certainly good finds to be had, but you need to go looking(your time, your gas, but actually can be a lot of fun).

Now we can get into tools(what is a reliable, capable bandsaw going to set you back?) and blades, materials, and electricty. Those costs are real, but you do not point those out in your cost per. set.

You will have losses from mishaps when resawing, or defects. That happens to everyone at some point. You make no mention of that in your per. set. cost.

So if you are realistic with costs, quality, finding the wood, presenting it for sale, packaging, cost of holding that inventory(yes, it costs money to let it set in inventory), overhead. You have "profit", which is what these guys get for there time(what do you think that is worth? Remember these are skilled individuals). It is pretty easy to see these guys are not making a killing(especially compaired to other regualr retail specialty businesses(of which some actually do nothing more than act as middle man).

I fully understand why a person would want to resaw. I know I love doing it, as well as hunting for wood. I also really enjoy the process of building guitars. Sometimes I would rather buy something and use that time to build(not source and process). I would also note that I have invested in tools to be able to do some things(and proper tools, and tool supplies are not cheap as you know). Nothing wrong with doing it either way.

Think about this. What would you have done when you first started. If there were no specialty dealers(StewMac, LMI, RCTonewood, Colonial, and on and on) out there? Would you have just gone to your local hardware and woodworkers shops and found what you needed? Would you have bought a large bandsaw along with other needed tools, assuming you had the knowledge needed at that point to select proper cuts. Keep a perspective on these things as well as these specialty dealers helping fund forums like this one. I have yet to meet a stinking rich instrument wood dealer(at least from selling wood) . Now lets talk about insurance companies, or oil companies(it might be a whole lot harder to justify their fees and profits ). Well I guess we are not supposed to do that here.

Peace,Rich

Bob, if you haven't totally sliced up that Narra, you might be able to salvage some neck blanks out of it. Narra makes good necks.

I like to go to the lumber yard and buy my wood there, I bought an 18" bandsaw so I could do it all myself. It means you have to know what your looking for in rough sawn planks, but that is just another skill that's nice to have as a guitarmaker.

Shipping to Australia is about $50 dollars for couple of tops or a back and side set, so that makes it even more expensive for us to import wood, but we've got tons of stuff here that's cheap and suitable.

What Rich said -

I personally enjoy the challenge of going to the yard and looking through the stack of mahogany and spanish cedar to find the boards that are well enough quartered and straight enough in grain to use for necks, etc, In fact, I just picked up enough for a dozen cherry necks and heel stacks
a week ago.

But, there is wastage. Some of the stuff you pick up just isn't there, or the the board was only 1/2 useable. The tonewood supplier has already gone through that process, and you get to pick up that factor of two. The factor can get even worse when the killer board you got from the mill has a pitch pocket that really messes up the best set. The tonewood supplier already dealt with that one, and cut that board up into whatever smaller component was reasonable.

So, I have no trouble with our suppliers dealing with that first level of processing. Thanks Bob, thanks Steve, Thanks Shane, thanks you all.

That being said, I have a strong urge to buy all the Honduran I can before things get out of hand.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Rich, you are right on all points. However, I think you paint the picture a little too bleakly.

You certainly can't pick up a board of Cocobolo randomly and expect it to work great. So don't pick them up randomly.      Your average small builder doesn't really use that much wood, and if you only come across a few good boards a year (certainly doable) you save yourself a bundle.

As for the cost of a bandsaw: You certainly have to decide how to justify this cost. Personally, I consider a good bandsaw to be one of the four essential shop power tools (along with table saw, jointer, and planer). So I consider it part of my overall shop overhead, and don't worry about allocating part of the cost to a particular project. If you don't see it that way, and you're trying to justify it just for resawing back and side sets, then you better plan on building a lot of guitars to recover the cost!

As for blades and electricity, it's true that adds to the cost, but not a huge amount. Maybe I should allocate a few bucks a set for blade wear and a couple bucks a set for power, which is on the high side, but it's probably best to err on the high side.

As for the occasional set that doesn't come out well, yes, that certainly happens.

Overall, I'll repeat what I said in my original post: The luthier suppliers certainly earn their keep, but if you don't place too high a value on your time, you can save yourself a lot of bucks.

Kelby,

Yes you certainly can. That's part of the joy of the search, and I like it, But it doesn't detract from what our suppliers are providing.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Kelby- I seek out and cut my own wood(tops, backs, sides, necks, pretty much everything). So I understand your point fully, and agree. I just wanted to point out so many things that people sometimes overlook. I don't know if I painted a bleak picture, but my goal was to point out the things that may not be thought about when evaluating.

A couple other thoughts. Not directed at you Kelby.

There are many many "tonewood" dealers that really get me mad(the ones that have no idea what they are doing, and that is fully appearant in what they sell and claim wood to be). I also get irritated by regular wood dealers that sell billets priced as if they were fully cut and surfaced at high yeilds(again claiming "musical grade") sets. This of course is not the case with the forum supporters here. They are qualified, offer great service, and high quality wood. More than enough to justify the price they ask.

None the less. To the person who is just starting out these specialty dealers offer a good, reliable way to get what they need. To the person that does not have time or even a lumber dealer near them. Again they offer a reliable place to get wood. If you have no need for their services(you have tools, experience and material available), that is cool. To think of them as overpriced though is kinda like saying custom guitar built by a professional luthier is overpriced, because you could buy the parts and wood cheaper. Don't devalue or overlook service, selection and experience.

Peace,Rich

Colin points out one a very significant increase in costs especially for anything shipped out of the US. This spring USPS eliminated the surface shipping option. This method was slow 6 to 12 weeks, and was about $2 pound. The lowest cost option now offered is faster 6-10 working days, but is closer to $4 pound. Effectively doubling the cost of shipping. I sent a package to Perry(Ormsby Guitars)in Western Australia yesterday, and the cost of shipping was almost as much as the wood itself. That certainly a noteworthy increase.

I have also noted the fuel surcharges on freight have been notable as of late. I doubt we will see a decrease in these fees in the future as oil companies have to break even higher records for profit that they are currently setting.

This certainly makes a case for using local supplies, and or makes shipping a very important factor when evaluating price. Also makes a case for setting up more local clubs, having BBQ's with other builders and attending shows or events. Watch for woodworkers and turners shows that travel the country. These are great places to meet local and national/international wood vendors(a few of our supporters also participate in these events).

Peace,Rich

I will defer to Cheech and Chong ...

No splits, no knots, that you dont need .. Cocobolo Gold is ... what I need ...

I am also on the lookout for some Bohemian Rosewood

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Your not wrong regarding the price of tonewood. As the supply of these wonderful woods becomes more difficult to get it will only rise higher. Thank goodness myself and other vendors have been able to keep the pricing down. I have had to absorb a 50% increase in tonewood costs over the last year so you guys can get an excellent set at an attainable price.

I have heard other people suggest that the price of tonewood should be higher so that it would encourage a far more conservative approach by forestry in the harvesting process.

Tim
Australian Tonewoods

I don't know if higher pricing on tonewood(at least for the hobbiest market) would make any kind of significant difference in harvesting. Maybe it would serve to motivate more loggers and mills to cut for musical needs(or maybe not). As mentioned by others. Logs generally are marked for the veneer market(if we are talking about hardwoods) because there is more money there. The veneer market is going to drive the price of high figure hardwoods that we would like to use, and because that market can buy more at those prices they are going to get first dibs.

Softwoods require special harvesting methods(for our purposes), and again you are up against other markets that would take those timbers(Aircraft, boat and such). When someone processes these woods at these grades. It takes a lot of time and resources to deal with small sales. When you can move the wood by the cord on a regular basis at a much more profitable price vs individual sales. You are going to see less available no matter what(the market value of the timber may not be the main driving factor, it is a time/volume/expense to profit game).

The hobbiest market can be a real pain in the rear to people trying to sell enough wood to make a living. I have been told by importers and guys that operate mills in my area, that is not worth their time to sell musical grade wood to the general public(mainly because buyers are so high maintenance and buy so little, and there is only a small amount of the wood that would meet that grade). One particular importer I recall talking to charged more than I bet many would believe at by the pallet rates for musical grade back and side sets, and it was still irritating to him to deal with those customers. I also recall a small mill owner talking about it being a waste of his time to deal with US customers as his overseas customers pay better in larger quantity and are much less demanding. I have talked to retailers(that specialize in musical grade) about their pricing, and how they come to the numbers they do(I am speaking of dealers that many would consider a little high). They simply say this. They sell everything quickly they can offer at that grade, and there is no real issue with competition if you sell everything you can get your hands on. By the same token I have talked to retailers that label wood that is certainly not musical grade and charge average to high prices(at "musical grade" pricing). I ask them if they sell much and they say it does sell eventually. I also have asked some of these people what they think of Ebay, and they just laugh. The musical wood market is an odd market to say the least.

One thing I really like to support is small local milling outfits that speicalize in recovery of trees and lumber. They are making use of a wasted resource and deal locally to limit shipping and such. They also are able to keep prices reasonable, because the business model is lean and mean. I can say every owner of one of these operations I have met has been wonderful to deal with, and are hard working people. Seek them out if there is one in your area .

Peace,Rich

Hi Rich,

You should check out my post http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5991& KW=black+swan#forumTop in May, 2006.

regards

Tim

[QUOTE=Bobc] ... how about the gorgeous 3" thick piece of curly narra that I cut into and had an insect track running on a diagonal clear thru the piece. Yield on that piece 0 sets.

... I just love wood too much and seeing someone's finished guitar with wood they have bought from me makes it all worthwhile.
[/QUOTE]
Hi Bob,

May I suggest that you show that curly Narra, and see if some of the creative minds here get sparked? For example, maybe a big inlay (possibly something asymmetrical) could be done over the area where the holes are? Is the bug track in a side billet, or a back billet? (There's probably less chance of saving a side billet, though I recently drew up a design that only needs 27" long sides.)

It could work perfectly for someone making double (laminated) sides, as the inner piece of a balanced pair. I have also seen a couple of designs that are sort of take-offs on violin family instruments, where the side pieces could be shorter segments.

I recently started a back with a wedge. It appears to be a 3-piece back, but the wedge is itself made of a skinny, bookmatched, tapered piece (of curly Katalox.) Looks really cool. So, maybe the material you have might make beautiful back wedges...

Anyway, could you please start a thread and post the material, and see if anyone sees possibilities? Some curly Narra is among the most beautiful wood I have ever seen.

Thanks,

Dennis

_________________
Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Yeah, do an inlay of a bug coming out of the hole, and call it a "port" and an artistic design feature.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Great topic guys. Here's something interesting that expands on what Colin mentioned. I have an LMI price sheet from 1998 (my first guitar took a really really long time to build). I think some of the prices might surprise you.

                                       1998   Today   Annualized Change
Sitka Master Grade   . . . . . 65.00   81.50 . . . 2.5%
WRC Fine Grade       . . . . . 36.00   55.05 . . . 5%
EIR Jumbo 1st grade . . . . . 63.00   83.10 . . . 3%
BRW      . . . . . . . . . . . to $700   na
Hond Mahog   . . . . . . . . . 48.00   54.35 . . . 1.5%
Mad Rose     . . . . . . . . . 125.00   287.35 . . 9.5%
African Blackwood . . . . .   250.00   575.00 . . 9.5%
Ziricote    . . . . . . . . . . . 150.00   297.45 . . 8%
Honduran RW . . . . . . . . . . 90.00    202.50 . . .9%
Mahog Neck Blank . . . . . . . 78.00   95.55 . . . 2.25%
Ebony Fretboard 1st . . . . . . 16.50   28.20 . . . 6%


Compare that to:
Inflation (CPI ex energy)   up 2.25% per year
Stock (Dow Indus ex dividends) up almost 5% (that includes 2 major sell-offs)
Oil   up 20%
US home prices up almost 9% (depending on the location)

Now throw in the fact that in that time period the US dollar is down 2-3% per year vs major currencies, and that makes imports more expensive. That means mahogany and EIR are "cheaper" today than 9 years ago, when adjusted for inflation and the decline in the dollar. Now I'm sure there was less competition back then, so margins were probably higher, and quality may also have been better. And granted, this is only one data point, but in the context of what other markets have done, especially given the scarcity of premium tonewoods, the old stand-bys really haven't been a good investment. So, stop hording (so I can buy some).


Bob K

[QUOTE=BobK] Great topic guys. Here's something interesting that expands on what Colin mentioned. I have an LMI price sheet from 1998 (my first guitar took a really really long time to build). I think some of the prices might surprise you.

                                                 1998   Today&nb sp;  Annualized Change
Sitka Master Grade   . . . . . 65.00   81.50 . . . 2.5%
WRC Fine Grade       . . . . . 36.00   55.05 . . . 5%
EIR Jumbo 1st grade . . . . . 63.00   83.10 . . . 3%
BRW      . . . . . . . . . . . to $700   na
Hond Mahog   . . . . . . . . . 48.00   54.35 . . . 1.5%
Mad Rose     . . . . . . . . . 125.00   287.35 . . 9.5%
African Blackwood . . . . .   250.00   575.00 . . 9.5%
Ziricote    . . . . . . . . . . . 150.00   297.45 . . 8%
Honduran RW . . . . . . . . . . 90.00    202.50 . . .9%
Mahog Neck Blank . . . . . . . 78.00   95.55 . . . 2.25%
Ebony Fretboard 1st . . . . . . 16.50   28.20 . . . 6%


Compare that to:
Inflation (CPI ex energy)   up 2.25% per year
Stock (Dow Indus ex dividends) up almost 5% (that includes 2 major sell-offs)
Oil   up 20%
US home prices up almost 9% (depending on the location)

Now throw in the fact that in that time period the US dollar is down 2-3% per year vs major currencies, and that makes imports more expensive. That means mahogany and EIR are "cheaper" today than 9 years ago, when adjusted for inflation and the decline in the dollar. Now I'm sure there was less competition back then, so margins were probably higher, and quality may also have been better. And granted, this is only one data point, but in the context of what other markets have done, especially given the scarcity of premium tonewoods, the old stand-bys really haven't been a good investment. So, stop hording (so I can buy some).


Bob K[/QUOTE]

This is a great post. I do appreciate the effort and I think it illustrates a point I 100% agree with -- that the tonewood dealers are not gouging the market.

However, one assumption that an analysis like this presumes (which I think is NOT the case) is that the wood we are getting today are similar in quality to what we could get nearly a decade ago. Particularly Ebony, EIR, and Mahogany. IMNSHO the quality on these woods is falling off pretty fast. ... and Madrose... forget it. The Special Sets that LMI were selling -- first at $285, then $375... are now non existent.

With this in mind I think the price of the wood is rising far faster than these numbers indicate.

I think in another 10 years you will be lucky to see the quality we are buying today in some woods...

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com